Tough words about GUI

[zer0]

The appeal of having "Pause | Stop" together was the analogy to the well established pattern from media controls. But "Stop" does not work in that position, because
1) Cancel is absolutely expected here. Everything else is almost a shock for the user.
2) Cancel here is overloaded in that it first cancels the processing and then cancels the dialog. The word "Stop" does not work for this.
3) The alternative "Pause | Cancel" looks totally awkward.
4) Removing the overloading and doing "Report --- Pause | Stop --- Cancel" would work, but has a button more (I need the space for probably 2 more buttons later), and would put users in a mild confusion about the difference between Stop and Cancel.

1) There is a debate to be had here. Cancel is good if you're copying/moving/backing up 1 file, because it discards the work in progress. If it's multiple files and the job is under way, Cancel isn't appropriate, because it doesn't remove copies of files that have already been created. Stop is better in such situation because it stops the current task, but does not discard work in progress. Check here for more about commit button labels: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library ... ttonLabels

2), 3) & 4) Then how about this -- when a user clicks "Stop", "Pause" button changes to "Retry" and "Stop" button changes to "Close"? This seems more efficient, because it allows you to reuse the same buttons, removes confusion and gives me a way to retry the job. It also gives you space for more buttons, though I'm concerned that you may be saturating it

Here are the mockups for paused and stopped states:

xyplorer_progress_dialogue_paused_v0.2.png (33.76 KiB) Viewed 2999 times

xyplorer_progress_dialogue_stopped_v0.2.png (31.96 KiB) Viewed 2999 times

[admin]

Yes, but still I think a Cancel button has to be there. And, as always , your critique strikes me as academic. For me, the current design works.

[eil]

I doubt it. File name is more important, so it should come first. Putting it after "Copying:" isn't good either as that would imply the overall progress status. I think after the file name is the best position as it would be more comfortable to understand when reading from left to right. I imagine the thought pattern to go "Copying of ThisIsAReallyCoolLinuxDistro.iso is at 39%".

name and percentage is equal important. with % after name: "book.txt (%)" is good, and how about "fantasy_novel_by_J.R.Tolkien_-_Lord_of_the_Rings_The Fellowship_of_Rings.fb2 (%)"? with long names i'll get bored before geting to that percentage

You have to understand that Vista/Win7's GUI style and functionality will only become more in-demand as its user base increases. Just check how many wishes there have been for libraries and breadcrumb menu There is nothing wrong with "borrowing" certain aspects from Explorer, because it makes users feel more familiar with software.

and why does its user base increases? 'cause Win7 is preinstalled in all nowaday bought PCs. Win 7 has a bunch of stuff that may be useful to some people(maybe many), but why running after "self-proclaimed standards"? yes, nothing wrong with "borrowing" certain aspects, but to that extent when it becomes coping and making "same candy with a bit of makeup".
familiarity to users is not a reason at all. i can't even imagine or remember a program which i'd met with "oh damn! i never saw something like that! how does it work?!". some time ago Opera made Tabs = now all browsers use them. standards are made by those who dare to make them.

That was more to show that progress bars on top are not that uncommon.
@Don: I am liking the new backup . Few things:
1) Maybe in Config | File Operation | backup operation | verification dropdown, you can add 'Ask' for those who want to decide on each backup what verification to use.
2) Its nice that Resume and Cancel are apart, but its still easy to stop the backup with ESC with no way of resuming back. Maybe a prompt before canceling? or only way to cancel could be via clicking cancel.
3) During a backup I did not realize that few files were skipped. Maybe some visual indication that files were skipped? like red font? And maybe XY taskbar button flicker/color change when I am away from XY window?

oh, sorry. then we share opinions
agreed with all 3 things - may be a useful improvements!. though 1st is more desired for me to be as only xycopy2.0 feature.

[zer0]

Yes, but still I think a Cancel button has to be there. And, as always , your critique strikes me as academic. For me, the current design works.

But Cancel doesn't actually cancel the dialogue, it just stops the action. And I take issue with your "academic" remark. Yes, I said a lot, but then I decided that it's better to show with mockups what improvements should be made. A picture says a thousand words

Your design works, I don't disagree (save for modal part). But it only works in that it shows information in a dialogue window. The design isn't slick and the layout isn't straightforward. You're planning for the future by making it a big dialogue instead of starting small and succinct and growing as development mandates. It may work, but that isn't enough in this day and age: things have to look good. And if something does not, the perception will always be that it does not work well. This is particularly true with software where users think that GUI is the software. It is such a waste to add great functionality only to be let down by an inelegant dialogue. Lastly, developers are usually more tolerant of their own creations

name and percentage is equal important. with % after name: "book.txt (%)" is good, and how about "fantasy_novel_by_J.R.Tolkien_-_Lord_of_the_Rings_The Fellowship_of_Rings.fb2 (%)"? with long names i'll get bored before geting to that percentage

Try backing up a file with that long a name. What happens? Yes, the name is truncated so that only a maximum of X characters are shown. This is a measure to prevent the dialogue from exploding width-wise. Thus, to use your example, something like this will be shown: "fantasy_novel_by_J.R.Tolkien_-_Lord_of_....(41%)".

and why does its user base increases? 'cause Win7 is preinstalled in all nowaday bought PCs. Win 7 has a bunch of stuff that may be useful to some people(maybe many), but why running after "self-proclaimed standards"? yes, nothing wrong with "borrowing" certain aspects, but to that extent when it becomes coping and making "same candy with a bit of makeup".

The reasons why it increases are irrelevant, the fact is: it does. Those standards aren't self-proclaimed. Microsoft are a good authority to determine those standards, since it's their operating systems that provide the environment for 3rd party software.

familiarity to users is not a reason at all.

you couldn't be more wrong. I'll let Jakob Nielsen (look him up) speak for me...

The most important reason? Users don't care about design for its own sake; they just want to get things done and get out. Normal people don't love sitting at their computers. They'd rather watch football, walk the dog — just about anything else. Using a computer probably rates above taking out the trash, though.

When people are visiting websites or using applications, they don't spend their time analyzing or admiring the design. They focus their attention on the task, the content, and their own data or documents.

Thus, people love a design when they know the features and can immediately locate the ones they need. That is, they love a familiar design.

[eil]

But Cancel doesn't actually cancel the dialogue, it just stops the action.

why would Cancel actually cancel a dialog? it means "stop", not "close"(which Close does)

Your design works, I don't disagree (save for modal part). But it only works in that it shows information in a dialogue window. The design isn't slick and the layout isn't straightforward. You're planning for the future by making it a big dialogue instead of starting small and succinct and growing as development mandates. It may work, but that isn't enough in this day and age: things have to look good. And if something does not, the perception will always be that it does not work well. This is particularly true with software where users think that GUI is the software. It is such a waste to add great functionality only to be let down by an inelegant dialogue. Lastly, developers are usually more tolerant of their own creations

oh common- you're just pushing to much. does the dialog right now is so big or is there really a waste of space/info/functions? even at my 1280x1024 is doesn't cause me troubles. besides it's still being polished. if Don has something planned than it's more than logical to make a "supply" for future(especially if it doesn't really makes present bad).
some of your words sound like this dialog can makes XY kinda "ugly".. look at DO- that's what ugly!. no-style mixed with win-style. i really don't know how people work with that(my record was less than 2 days).
tolerance doesn't mean "make something not like you want but like others do, or it's a crap"

Try backing up a file with that long a name. What happens? Yes, the name is truncated so that only a maximum of X characters are shown. This is a measure to prevent the dialogue from exploding width-wise. Thus, to use your example, something like this will be shown: "fantasy_novel_by_J.R.Tolkien_-_Lord_of_....(41%)".

i was guessing it'll do so, but then i even agreed with opinion mentioned before, about fixed percentage position(like it's now).

The reasons why it increases are irrelevant, the fact is: it does. Those standards aren't self-proclaimed. Microsoft are a good authority to determine those standards, since it's their operating systems that provide the environment for 3rd party software.

oh no, they're much relevant. 'cause many advanced PC users(at least in my country) install Win7 only for right multi-core work. otherwise they'd rather prefer XP(though it's really becoming old ), 'cause 7 uses a ton of resources to nowhere = and only dumbos says "i have lots of CPU/RAM and i don't care"
whether Microsoft self-proclaimed or not, and if their standards matter something great, for me personally, clearly shown by the situation, where i use NON-system notepad, draw program, players, viewers, uninstall & control centers, styles, shell, browser, codecs, buffer manager, and lots of tweaks and "handmade improvements" - and nothing of Win-native(as far as a can). so all they provided here is a platform.

you couldn't be more wrong. I'll let Jakob Nielsen (look him up) speak for me...

The most important reason? Users don't care about design for its own sake; they just want to get things done and get out. Normal people don't love sitting at their computers. They'd rather watch football, walk the dog — just about anything else. Using a computer probably rates above taking out the trash, though.
When people are visiting websites or using applications, they don't spend their time analyzing or admiring the design. They focus their attention on the task, the content, and their own data or documents.
Thus, people love a design when they know the features and can immediately locate the ones they need. That is, they love a familiar design.

well, for such "normal people" there appeared lots of programs(if they can be called so) last few years, which have blurry-shiny design and promise to do everything for you with only one button. mostly they do only something or nothing or something but not what promised or you desired. and i don't feel any pity for those fools who spent money on such worthless programs. let them focus on their TV, taking out trash and focusing on documents, if they don't want to make their work with computer comfortable, useful and optimised with appropriate software.

i guess i might be too rude here.. so a bit of pardon, for me having such thoughts.

[admin]

Just to put it out there, here is teracopy's GUI.

that's more to a xycopy, not backup. by the way TeraCopy was not the first one to use such interface, and though now it's a bit ahead in development, it's still "copies" it's predecessor in style never the less, such interface is rather(if not saying Most!) usable\useful for coping-managers.

That was more to show that progress bars on top are not that uncommon.
@Don: I am liking the new backup . Few things:
1) Maybe in Config | File Operation | backup operation | verification dropdown, you can add 'Ask' for those who want to decide on each backup what verification to use.
2) Its nice that Resume and Cancel are apart, but its still easy to stop the backup with ESC with no way of resuming back. Maybe a prompt before canceling? or only way to cancel could be via clicking cancel.
3) During a backup I did not realize that few files were skipped. Maybe some visual indication that files were skipped? like red font? And maybe XY taskbar button flicker/color change when I am away from XY window?

Yes, these are possible refinements for later. But for now I will stay where I am.

[zer0]

But Cancel doesn't actually cancel the dialogue, it just stops the action.

why would Cancel actually cancel a dialog? it means "stop", not "close"(which Close does)

Once again, you are mistaken. Cancel's de facto action is to close the window. Look at any other XYplorer or Explorer dialogue. What does Cancel do? It cancels the relevant dialogue.

oh common- you're just pushing to much. does the dialog right now is so big or is there really a waste of space/info/functions? even at my 1280x1024 is doesn't cause me troubles. besides it's still being polished. if Don has something planned than it's more than logical to make a "supply" for future(especially if it doesn't really makes present bad).

Even on my 1920x1200 24" monitor, its footprint is too big. No, it is not logical to provision in advance when it comes to dialogue windows. This is because, when starting small, one's mind is always challenged when a dialogue would need expansion. This would make one think more about where to position a new UI element so not to loose synergy with others. For example, you're thinking of buying a new sofa for your living room. It's more efficient to determine how to rearrange other items of furniture in the room to allow space for this sofa instead of knocking down a wall to make the living room bigger. With a big dialogue window, one can just think "there's some empty space here, so i'm gonna dump a couple of buttons a label". That's sloppy GUI design.

With your other points, I feel that we're drifting away from this thread's topic, which I would not like to do. Feel free to PM me if you would like to carry on that discussion

[zer0]

I'm still not entirely happy with the GUI of XYcopy and its siblings as per screenshots below.

progress_diag_completed.PNG (35.62 KiB) Viewed 2883 times

bj_status.PNG (17.37 KiB) Viewed 2883 times

[admin]

It builds confidence in the user.

I see no way to make it better within the current layout.

[Borut]

This is a nonessential GUI suggestion/idea regarding titles of custom copy and backup dialogs (which has nothing to do with previous posts in this thread):

The title of the dialog window is of course repeated in the task bar. However, due to the restricted length of the visible string part there, in case of the custom copy at least the throughput is not visible there (in my case - WinXP).

How about therefore using shorter titles and avoiding parentheses? For example:

Code: Select all

Instead of: Custom copy ppp% (mm,mm MB/sec)
Suggested.. XYcc ppp% mm,m MB/s

or

Code: Select all

Instead of: Backup ppp% (mm,mm MB/sec)
Suggested.. XYbck ppp% mm,m MB/s

[admin]

Or even like this?

Code: Select all

ppp% (mm,mm MB/sec) - Backup
ppp% (mm,mm MB/sec) - Custom Copy

EDIT: Tested it, looks good.

[zer0]

It builds confidence in the user.

I see no way to make it better within the current layout.

Software should project a sense of confidence implicitly. And if the layout does not support improvements then you change the layout.

I'd suggest removal of "Processing completed." and changing Remarks to Time taken as it's a non-verified copy. This would allow you to be succinct. If I had to design it, this is how I would make it look:

custom_copy_summary.png (27.19 KiB) Viewed 2842 times

As you can see, very tidy, with no wasted space and all the same information provided in a more elegant way.

[admin]

A screenshot is not enough to design a changing thing like a progress dialog. It's a machine with various states and routes. You'd rather need a storyboard approach. But please don't try to do this now, as I won't change the design anymore now. Possible future paths are already laid out in my head, so you have very little chances to add something valuable here.

But still I like your black + white sketchy design with Comic Sans font! One day I'll write such a skin for XY...

[eil]

i kinda agree with zer0 that maybe there are too much of "completed" there. maybe it's better to a bit paraphrase it? for example "Processing ended" and "Custom Copy done in .. min".

[j_c_hallgren]

i kinda agree with zer0 that maybe there are too much of "completed" there. maybe it's better to a bit paraphrase it? for example "Processing ended" and "Custom Copy done in .. min".

Yes, there are other similar words that could be used so there is a bit of variety..like finished/done/ended/etc.