Toolbar Tooltips v2.0

[TheQwerty]

Add a new comment that's not meant as a comment? Sounds a bit strange, I think.

Isn't this the place to use some kind of delimiter?

Not at all.. it's still a comment, and in my mind it is a bit like generating documentation from comments, which a number of programming languages have today. Look at Java, C#, and Python all have similar comment types for generating documentation.

Adding yet another delimiter to the already existing "Caption|Icon|State : Label" line is ridiculous. Just how much abuse are we going to do to this poor line? Why are we dead set on making this line at least 200 characters long?



To be honest I still believe the entire script file as menu needs to be deprecated and replaced with a new scripting engine that forces the user to code the menu themselves, or at least we need a scripting engine v2 option that does so instead of continuing this syntax abuse. See http://www.xyplorer.com/xyfc/viewtopic. ... 190#p37190 It's entirely plausible that I want the same exact script to use different icons, states, and descriptions depending on how or when it is called, and as it stands today this is a huge pain in the neck. Today just calling the same script but showing different menu items is annoying.

[zer0]

As an image worth a thousand words, below there two thousand words which may convince you that the unorthodox method is the current one. Consider also that a clicked CTB that shows a list of CTBs still remains as an extension of the toolbar, thus being that info/tooltip the first layer of info while CTBs, despite hidden under another CTB, are nothing more than GUI elements, not info elements.

On your first screenshot, why can't that long textual entry be condensed to "Edit History in Notepad"? It's relevant, succinct and short. A problem with your 2nd screenshot is that info tip overlays a menu entry that is immediately below the one for which are you showing an info tip. That's a "no-no" as far as design of info tips is concerned.

A clicked CTB does not show a list of CTBs. It shows a list of menu items that are scripts. It is virtually unheard of for menu items to have corresponding info tips. Do you know of any mainstream piece of software that has info tips for its menu items? Hand on heart, I can't think of any...

...It's standard behavior for the status bar to show a short description of the focused menu item, and I don't see any reason not to use it here...

Correction: "It's standard behaviour for the status bar to show a short description of the focused List item..."

...Which would display the menu, and when you mouse over/focus an item the description comment would be shown in the status bar.

Toolbar is at the top edge of XYplorer's frame. Status bar is at the bottom. It would be rather disjointed to have status bar show info tips for menu items on the other side of the screen. Besides, it is standard practice to place tool and info tips near an object that is being hovered -- either at the head or tail of the pointer.

[TheQwerty]

...It's standard behavior for the status bar to show a short description of the focused menu item, and I don't see any reason not to use it here...

Correction: "It's standard behaviour for the status bar to show a short description of the focused List item..."

Your correction is wrong. Navigate the shell's context menu from within XY. Watch the status bar. Even Windows Explorer does this in XP. It shows the description for the current menu item, it's been this way for ages.

Now I'll grant you that it looks like Microsoft no longer suggests this method, but that does not change the fact that it has been the standard for a while now.

[zer0]

Your correction is wrong. Navigate the shell's context menu from within XY. Watch the status bar. Even Windows Explorer does this in XP. It shows the description for the current menu item, it's been this way for ages.

We misunderstood each other I thought you meant menu items as in "Tools -> Configuration..." in XYplorer, but you meant context and menu bar's menus in Explorer

[SkyFrontier]

"TheQwerty:
...but why reinvent the wheel by using a tooltip? It's standard behavior for the status bar to show a short description of the focused menu item, and I don't see any reason not to use it here.

XY already supports this method as is evidenced by the shell's context menu. I still think Don should take a week and add descriptions to the main menu as well, but it's clearly a low priority."

EXACTLY!

It seems simple, but I'm not a program developer so I don't know how much effort that would take. IT SEEMS that adding the comment support to the current CTB format, like " "V Kboard|C:\WINDOWS\system32\osk.exe" open "C:\WINDOWS\system32\osk.exe"; "Use this to enter your passwords more securely!" ", would not be much work to do. But I don't know a line on this kind of comments and its integration with OS tooltips, maybe XYplorer itself has its own independent tooltip support. Anyway, I see too much benefits out of this.

Of course extending such feature to the whole GUI would be great, in ways of giving user the freedom to create and, depending on how it would be implemented, share his custom localized GUI element in the License Lounge, adding even more value to that area (reserved for paying customers, in other words: more benefits). But that would be the hardest part of the work, and I agree that such a thing could be added later.

I agree that displaying something in statusbar can be an alternative, but one would need to execute the script first to in a second step have a message box telling him what the script do and asking him to whether continue or not. Wait - that ALREADY can be done with current script commands! Tootips can avoid all of this by just telling in advance what a script can do, plus allowing comments on programs also, and anything else that can be done thru CTBs - navigating to folders, for instance.

But look at the forged screenshots and see the difference between the current format and a new one in means of a "Caption|Icon|State; Label" format. I'm also concerned on the beauty of the beast. And remember: one would not HAVE to use labels, but it will be useful for those who can take benefits of it. It could be leave empty and work as it currently do, no problem for users who do not need them but a great choice for the users who may need them. We can assign any keyboard combo for any function in XY - I see no reason to not offer a tool to organize such flexibility. At least for CTBs and ideally for the entire GUI. My 40 cents, this time. lol

Zer0:
"On your first screenshot, why can't that long textual entry be condensed to "Edit History in Notepad"?

The point is: offer the user options to do what HE wants. No boundaries. If it will look ugly, it's not our problem. But I bet that if one can use how many words he need instead of a limited amount, he will choose the first. If a limit must be set, ok - but for the screenshots you can presume that any amount of words will NOT screw the design.

Zer0:
"A problem with your 2nd screenshot is that info tip overlays a menu entry that is immediately below the one for which are you showing an info tip. That's a "no-no" as far as design of info tips is concerned."

Remember: I did not code that in the app. I forged it in a hurry with GIMP, not to impress anyone - just to give an idea on what I'm telling. That's Don's department. I think we're getting deeper on details and losing the forest for the trees. "Localization" , "design" and "flexibility" are the keywords and I saw no discussion on that so far (ok, we went into the "design" topic but with more focus on HOW and WHY basing comments on misunderstandings - that's why I added the illustrations, and to me it's clear that the second screenshot shows a polite way to tell user what a button do. Industry standard, by the way, so nothing new on that itself).

Zer0:
"A clicked CTB does not show a list of CTBs. It shows a list of menu items that are scripts."

Please consider that I'm not into XY insider language yet. I came from PowerDesk where I could add those buttons by drag-and-drop, adding later a tooltip which in fact I do not miss once I can use the "Caption|". But reading topics regarding localization and having myself colleagues to whom I'm trying to sell XYplorer, I see that "; comments" could be of a great usage for everyone.
Sell: sell the IDEA and pointing them the regular ways to BUY XYplorer, before someone else could think I'm trying to make money out of it, as now and then I see my words taken erroneously.

"Zer0:
Do you know of any mainstream piece of software that has info tips for its menu items? Hand on heart, I can't think of any..."

I see that Don already said that localization is out of question for a long time, so I thought on an easier way to solve 3 problems with a simple solution. That's it. Give the user OPTION to do what he want, localization, notes, whatever he may need to do with words. NOTHING, if one does not need such feature. That was just an idea envisioned out off problems that were already discussed in here. Nothing more, nothing less, considering many aspects: developer's roadmap, user's requests and design.

[zer0]

On your first screenshot, why can't that long textual entry be condensed to "Edit History in Notepad"?

The point is: offer the user options to do what HE wants. No boundaries. If it will look ugly, it's not our problem.

You haven't answered my question though Why can't that long entry be shortened to what I proposed? It won't take you long to do it and Don doesn't have to do any extra work.

You seem to be under an impression that having options for absolutely everything aka "no boundaries" is a good thing. I respectfully disagree. It may sound like a good thing, but it is not. Think about it...

Remember: I did not code that in the app. I forged it in a hurry with GIMP, not to impress anyone - just to give an idea on what I'm telling.

But it is also something that you need to consider. You're proposing this idea, you need to have thought it through and have all the answers

...that's why I added the illustrations, and to me it's clear that the second screenshot shows a polite way to tell user what a button do. Industry standard, by the way, so nothing new on that itself)...

That "MED" for which you crafted an info tip is not a button!!! It's a menu item And there's nothing "industry standard" about having info tips for menu items, because there is no such standard.

...Please consider that I'm not into XY insider language yet. I came from PowerDesk...

Be that as it may, I have never used PowerDesk, so I wouldn't know how to describe those concepts in that product's language. While I have tried to explain myself in simplest terms possible, I cannot help but use XY language when it comes to elements of XYplorer. Perhaps manual/wiki will help your comprehension...

I see that Don already said that localization is out of question for a long time...

Once again, you seem to be going off on a tangent. Do you know of any mainstream software that displays info tips for menu items?

[TheQwerty]

After taking a closer look through Microsoft's guidelines they don't seem to have any standard for additional information for menu items.

In their general guidelines for status bars, they say:

Don't use the status bar to explain menu bar items. This help pattern isn't discoverable.

I don't know if they previously suggested it, but I've seen it a lot in the past and assumed it was considered standard. (WE, TextPad, Foobar2000, Console2 all use it..)

The menu guidelines don't suggest an alternative, aside from saying that the items should be easily explained via their context (menu category, state, etc.), which seems to imply they see no need for a description in the status bar or infotip.

If you want to take a more liberal reading of the guidelines for infotips, they suggest using them on the Start Menu, so perhaps you'd be somewhat justified in saying they could be used in other menus as well.

So yeah... who knows...

[SkyFrontier]

"Zer0:
You haven't answered my question though Why can't that long entry be shortened to what I proposed? It won't take you long to do it and Don doesn't have to do any extra work."

Because if I answer that I had to put any other possible captions available on the entire Universe (learn Klingon and Elfic, also) just to have another consideration on each single case. Why not discuss the general principal? That was not to be sarcastic, that was just to give you an answer.

But it is also something that you need to consider. You're proposing this idea, you need to have thought it through and have all the answers

That implies learning VB and having access to the source code. Just to have ALL the answers.

" That "MED" for which you crafted an info tip is not a button!!! It's a menu item "

Think on what the FINAL USER see: "it has a button, it has an icon, it has a caption..." No, no: "I can click that blue star, so it's a BUTTON!" Before you start telling me that "the final user is not able to script", consider the whole picture (which is being constantly ignored): I saw a husband (IN THIS FORUM! HERE!!!) asking for help on this exact matter. He was asking for language support (french, in case). Well... he may not be a scripter, but if he really needs that feature so he can turn his wife's life easier, he has the option to translate himself the GUI for her. Oh, he has no option. Ok, but at least he can assign usual functions via script/CTB (which he'll probably refer to her as a BUTTON, and not a script/CTB) and add a single CTB having her name or anything else so she can at least go to that BUTTON and select what function she may want to perform, in her own native language. Oh, they still have no option! The question is: is that hard doing that, considering all of this? Don's turn, not ours. Will I quit using XYplorer by not having such feature? Absolutely not, I'm not defending that I need that - I can live with the ugly impression I got when using the current "Caption|Icon|State" format. I also can understand which functions do what in current GUI language and I keep several notes at hand so I can take most of the app as it currently is. I only see that potential market is being ignored by not implementing such feature (which I see as easy to do, while not having Don's words on that) which turns to be useful for several reasons. But... not my money!

While I have tried to explain myself in simplest terms possible, I cannot help but use XY language when it comes to elements of XYplorer.

Not that fast, not that easy. I can't see simple terms while we're losing time on semantics of "Button" and "scripts/CTB". The FACT is: you understood me. This is a forum for the people passing by and not a tech discussion between app developers in a brainstorm reunion.

Do you know of any mainstream software that displays info tips for menu items?

I see XYplorer as a unique file manager allowing scripting functions that can be easily handled. Thus, it has unique features which require unique solutions. I can't remember a single software allowing in-deep keyboard usage as XY does, and I tested for several reasons far beyond the thousands of apps. Once again, we're taking the forest for the trees and I see no point in discussing this anymore. What about a word on the idea itself, and its benefits as they were presented originally? Now we also have a PICTURE to refer to, so what about just stay on the benefits themselves from the average Joe point of view?

TheQwerty, this time:
Don't use the status bar to explain menu bar items. This help pattern isn't discoverable.

Thanks! So we're back on tracks on this topic proposal: having HINTS (zer0, don't look at me that way!!! lol) on BUTTONS to tell WHAT EACH BUTTON can do, which also could be EASILY CUSTOMIZED so one could also TAKE NOTES on each button's features as it needs for a reason or another, or also HAVE THE APP TRANSLATED, which on developer's current schedule will not happen anytime soon, plus NOT INTERFERING on app's visual appeal, keeping the industry standards on TIPS (oh, sin!) usage while allowing users have their control given by a unique-in-the-industry tool, which in its turns has unique needs.

[zer0]

Why not discuss the general principal?

The general principle is that it is possible to give each caption a succinct name, keeping that menu narrow and relevant. You do not wish to do that, so you'd rather there was additional functionality to accommodate a long description without looking aesthetically shameful.

That implies learning VB and having access to the source code. Just to have ALL the answers.

Not at all. Don does the coding. When one wishes for something, one needs to have (or be able to produce) a thorough design for consideration. That being said, if you know VB then it's even better because you'll be able to speak Don's language

Think on what the FINAL USER see: "it has a button, it has an icon, it has a caption..." No, no: "I can click that blue star, so it's a BUTTON!"

That "blue star" object that you're referring to is indeed a button. However, the list of items that appears when you click on the "blue star" isn't a list of buttons, but menu items. Much the same, that GIMP-created info tip of yours is an info tip for a menu item, not a button. I never encountered an application that has such a feature.

This is a forum for the people passing by and not a tech discussion between app developers in a brainstorm reunion.

This forum is for all things XY-related. Sometimes it may be a casual discussion and other times it may be a technical brainstorm session. And people have been "passing by" for many a year here

I see XYplorer as a unique file manager allowing scripting functions that can be easily handled. Thus, it has unique features which require unique solutions.

Unique solutions is one thing. Unconventional, unexpected, low value, substitute-for-more-efficient-approach and extra-work-needed solutions are entirely another. Each feature addition has to be justified. One of the strongest justifications is precedent. There is none for menu items' info tips.

[PeterH]

Add a new comment that's not meant as a comment? Sounds a bit strange, I think.

Isn't this the place to use some kind of delimiter?

Not at all.. it's still a comment, and in my mind it is a bit like generating documentation from comments, which a number of programming languages have today. Look at Java, C#, and Python all have similar comment types for generating documentation.

Adding yet another delimiter to the already existing "Caption|Icon|State : Label" line is ridiculous. Just how much abuse are we going to do to this poor line? Why are we dead set on making this line at least 200 characters long?

If I understand it right, these are 2 different things: commenting a program for the programmer, or for the user. And I don't expect a language to define text for the user as a kind of comment in the program source. As the source-comments should comment the source...

And further it seams to me, you replace a (simple) delimiter by something like ///, becomming a sort of super-delimiter, but named comment? I don't feel that is better. And whatever delimiter: the statement will nevertheless get longer. (Or I misunderstood what you said.)

[j_c_hallgren]

Stepping into this because I'd like to provide a slightly different but similar reply to zer0's:

That implies learning VB and having access to the source code. Just to have ALL the answers.

Not at all. Don does the coding. When one wishes for something, one needs to have (or be able to produce) a thorough design for consideration. That being said, if you know VB then it's even better because you'll be able to speak Don's language

I don't agree that one needs to always have a "thorough design" but it should, I believe:
1) Have been researched to see if there is any history of similar
2) Be as consistent with XY 'style' & philosophy as possible
3) Be supported if needed by examples from other FM's or software
4) Be useful to as many users as possible without affecting existing users

Some of the best ideas have been very simple ones from newer users that simply ask "could we do xxx?"

This is a forum for the people passing by and not a tech discussion between app developers in a brainstorm reunion.

This forum is for all things XY-related. Sometimes it may be a casual discussion and other times it may be a technical brainstorm session. And people have been "passing by" for many a year here

Passing by? Well, yes, we do have a nbr of 'drive-bys' and new users who come & go but if you look at the join dates of our most freq posters http://www.xyplorer.com/xyfc/memberlist ... &sk=d&sd=d, you'll see most have 2+ yrs here and some have 4 to 6 yrs experience so I certainly don't call that "passing by"...and there have been casual discussions as well as very involved ones that even I have trouble following and both are needed here.

[SkyFrontier]

1) Have been researched to see if there is any history of similar - I even QUOTED other thread discussing this as a part of a potential problem, so - passed. Do I have to post each and every single thread I came across when I thought on this (little elegant) solution (to a few problems in a single shot)?
2) Be as consistent with XY 'style' & philosophy as possible - I can't see why such a program having full (customizable) control on both keyboard shortcuts and programmability using scripts doesn't have support to CUSTOM labels (or whatever one may want to call them) - passed.
3) Be supported if needed by examples from other FM's or software - I can't see any other FM doing 1/10 of what XY does in several ways; of course there are similarities on DirOpus and TotalCMDr, but they don't have such deep customization as XY provides, so no way I can compare what's incomparable - passed.
4) Be useful to as many users as possible without affecting existing users - that's what this is all about, specially if you consider that

self:
And remember: one would not HAVE to use labels, but it will be useful for those who can take benefits of it. It could be leave empty and work as it currently do, no problem for users who do not need them but a great choice for the users who may need them.

so - passed!!! Of course one would say "not passed", but hey - we are discussing ideas, this is a WISH section. It's not a priority? Fine. It does not have any value? Fine. But what really concerns me is - we are not talking on the benefits themselves and spending too much time on "how to post a topic" or "what's the expected way to do something we really have no power to do".

Hallgren:
...both are needed here.

Needed but not welcome if that doesn't meet the forum/app standards, with due respect - and that's the opinion of a new user who is just trying to contribute while trying to get answers on "why not?" but in the meantime just having "you did not said it right!" as practical results. My honest opinion.

[j_c_hallgren]

But what really concerns me is - we are not talking on the benefits themselves and spending too much time on "how to post a topic" or "what's the expected way to do something we really have no power to do".

Yes, there HAS been way too much text (BTW, the longer it is, the less likely Don will read it!) and thus time spent on things unrelated to the core wish...and your last response is a perfect example of that!
You will notice that NOWHERE in my list of the four items did I specifically mention or suggest that you had not done so?

Because I was responding mostly that zer0's request of a "thorough design" could also be handled via alternatives... So your extensive reply was just a lot of unneeded text that didn't further the discussion...A simple statement like "I think I've met those four items" would have sufficed if you wished to address that area.

Needed but not welcome if that doesn't meet the forum/app standards, with due respect - and that's the opinion of a new user who is just trying to contribute while trying to get answers on "why not?" but in the meantime just having "you did not said it right!" as practical results. My honest opinion.

Well, a good reason why you may be getting what you see as the wrong type of replies is due to how you present an issue...in general, the minimal amount of text needed to say what you need plus usage of terminology that we know and use (given the experience level of the user as we understand it) is preferred...and what we've seen has been sometimes superfluous and/or inconsistent/incorrect thus making it hard to know what you actually mean...sorry....so I'd suggest you attempt, when possible, to make posts more concise (extra text doesn't always help) and be more accurate/consistent in terminology...that should help you get better results plus reduce some of the friction here.

Also, what I was addressing was the "passing by" comment as many of us long-timers here don't fit that mold and we sometimes do have discussions which may well be beyond the understanding of a new user but what's the problem with that? I don't see any...anyone is welcome to comment in any thread as long as it's not trolling.

BTW, I tried to make this as short as I could but it took more words than I thought.

[SkyFrontier]

"You will notice that NOWHERE in my list of the four items did I specifically mention or suggest that you had not done so?"

Just for the record, as one passing by could not understand that way. If I answer, I'm doing wrong. If I silent, I'm doing worse. So I will silence on this, also. And probably silence on everything else, as

"A simple statement like "I think I've met those four items" would have sufficed if you wished to address that area."

and

"...I'd suggest... to make posts more concise (extra text doesn't always help) and be more accurate/consistent in terminology"

shows that I'm not into the forum standards.

But... wait... look to the original topic... the one in which I started short, concise and stating exactly what I was expecting... oh, we're going into another endless useless loop again.

P.S.: another off-topic answer which leads to another off-topic reply. And I saw nothing on usefulness/design/ease of implementation. Again.

SkyFrontier out.