UDC menu's Apply button

[zer0]

I've been stung rather badly by not clicking 'Apply' button when browsing between different 'Edit' windows in UDC menu. Therefore, I'd like to find out why changes aren't preserved when doing that browsing? Why clicking 'Apply' is necessary to keep code in its current state?

'Apply' button has historically been there to instantaneously implement changes that have been made. A hiccup with UDC menu is that it's impossible to test those changes until it's closed, because it cannot be minimised. Bummer! It seems illogical for changes to be lost when one didn't quit the UDC menu [by clicking 'Cancel'], taking into account that if one clicks 'OK' on the main UDC menu then changes are implemented. Clearly, both of those provide remedies for those wishing/not wishing for UDC changes to take effect, rendering 'Apply' redundant.

[admin]

I use the Manage Commands dialog very rarely recently (all UDCs I need I have defined long ago and they still do their job), so I'm not sure. I tend to say you are right, especially since there's the "Reset" button which allows to do kind of the opposite of Apply in case one decides not to apply the recent changes.

I'd like to hear comments of others, just to be sure that there's no bad thinking at work. Often, after I removed something, I have learned the hard way, that I had had actually a good reason to have added it in the first place.

[j_c_hallgren]

I use the Manage Commands dialog very rarely recently (all UDCs I need I have defined long ago and they still do their job), so I'm not sure. I tend to say you are right, especially since there's the "Reset" button which allows to do kind of the opposite of Apply in case one decides not to apply the recent changes.

Same here...I can't recall when I last used the UDC Manage...but I'm going to say that I both agree & disagree with zer0! Ok...I'll explain that...

I agree/understand about the loss of changes as that would irritate me as well...however,
I disagree with the concept that Apply is unneeded as I think it still is needed.

Apply is useful in the 'local' sense in that I can 'save' changes to one entry and still not exit the dialog which "OK" will do (as that is a 'global' save, right?).

What could be done is a user-switchable flag to have XY do a pop-up like Excel does when you try to close a sheet that you've done just about anything to and say essentially "Unsaved changes! What now?" to force user to either apply them or cancel them...this would require a "cancel" button on the 'local' level (within the Cmd Prop box) which now seems to be called Reset which I find a bit confusing as I'd think that clears it back to nothing.

[jacky]

If we're talking about removing the Apply button, don't do it.
If we're talking about "auto-applying" changes when browsing away (or pressing OK to close the window), I'm not sure. I tend to feel that a (much) better way would be, as jc said, a Yes/No/Cancel popup warning of un-applied changes and asking whether or not to apply them.

As for the OP, I think there's a little bit of confusion in the way you seem to see the button Apply. It has, here, nothing to do with the OK button, they do not refer to the same thing at all. Apply, alongside Reset, are within the "Command properties" area and refer to that, the properties of the one UDC being edited, and only that.
OK, alongside Cancel, refer to the current state of ALL the UDCs existing (in all categories). The idea being, after you created/edited an UDC, you need to apply those changes. But only if you click OK will they be applied/taken into account, while hitting Cancel would resort back to the previous state (before entering Manage UDCs). If anything, that changes are taken into account while pressing OK (and without Applying them first) could be seen as a bug.

[j_c_hallgren]

If anything, that changes are taken into account while pressing OK (and without Applying them first) could be seen as a bug.

Not really a bug to me! I find that this allows me to do it in one click if I so choose and saves a step if all I'm doing is one simple change...there are other app's that have this style of operation and I don't find it unusual at all.

[jacky]

If anything, that changes are taken into account while pressing OK (and without Applying them first) could be seen as a bug.

Not really a bug to me! I find that this allows me to do it in one click if I so choose and saves a step if all I'm doing is one simple change...there are other app's that have this style of operation and I don't find it unusual at all.

I know, and I understand why it's been made that way. It's just that it is inconsistent with how it works otherwise, i.e. when browsing away (change category, select another UDC, etc), where changes are then discarded and not applied.
And as I said, I'm not sure such an auto-validation would be the best way to go. It makes sense that one needs to validate the changes done, either by pressing Enter or clicking Apply, and having a warning pop-up asking to apply the changes before going away sounds good to me, but auto-applying them silently might not be the best thing...
(OTOH I might be used to the current behavior and influenced by it. After all, although there is more here than just a focused/active textbox, an auto-validation when clicking away is how the basic single Rename operation works... Either way, there's an inconsistency that needs to be addressed, for sure.)

[Muroph]

there were many times when i forgot to hit apply and lost the changes in one or more UDCs.
the problem is that simply selecting a different UDC without clicking apply will erase any changes you made.
a popup confirmation when clicking OK isn't going to fix that.
i'm with zer0 here.
auto-apply all changes (making the apply button redundant), but still only save them when clicking OK.

[j_c_hallgren]

the problem is that simply selecting a different UDC without clicking apply will erase any changes you made.
a popup confirmation when clicking OK isn't going to fix that.

Yes, I think it would as that first case is exactly when the pop-up should occur! So that you couldn't navigate away without making a choice as to disposition (if you want that handholding)...Not needed on the second as that implies Apply for the current UDC.

[Muroph]

Yes, I think it would as that first case is exactly when the pop-up should occur! So that you couldn't navigate away without making a choice as to disposition (if you want that handholding)...Not needed on the second as that implies Apply for the current UDC.

oh, now i understand what you mean.
yes, this would be good enough for me.
but i still think auto-apply would be better (maybe i'm just too lazy ).

[j_c_hallgren]

but i still think auto-apply would be better (maybe i'm just too lazy ).

Ok, so we could have a choice in the option: Auto-apply -or- prompt
So it would do one of the two when you had unapplied chgs and did something that would cause them to be lost...

[zer0]

Perhaps a pop up should occur when clicking on 'OK' button to close the overall UDC menu, but I resent a thought that such a pop up would nag me every time I swap between UDCs or categories of UDCs. I've been contemplating a thought that 'Apply' should be changed to 'Reverse', which would undo the changes that are made. That way one doesn't have to definitively commit a UDC until one is sure that it is right for one, and is still able to browse between different commands without changes being discarded.

[admin]

Perhaps a pop up should occur when clicking on 'OK' button to close the overall UDC menu, but I resent a thought that such a pop up would nag me every time I swap between UDCs or categories of UDCs. I've been contemplating a thought that 'Apply' should be changed to 'Reverse', which would undo the changes that are made. That way one doesn't have to definitively commit a UDC until one is sure that it is right for one, and is still able to browse between different commands without changes being discarded.

That's what I tried to say already: "Reset" is exactly the button you describe, and it exists already. I'm still inclined to hard-code auto-apply and dump the Apply button. Who would miss the Apply button and why?

[zer0]

That's what I tried to say already: "Reset" is exactly the button you describe, and it exists already. I'm still inclined to hard-code auto-apply and dump the Apply button. Who would miss the Apply button and why?

Roger that. My bad for misinterpreting what you meant. I also thought that 'Reset' resets the button to a completely clear state alas it does not

[j_c_hallgren]

Perhaps a pop up should occur when clicking on 'OK' button to close the overall UDC menu, but I resent a thought that such a pop up would nag me every time I swap between UDCs or categories of UDCs.

But as I see it, the pop-up at 'OK' is NOT needed as that says you've decided to commit any/all changes made...it IS needed only when swapping when there are changes made but the 'Apply' button hasn't been used...and as I proposed, you would have choice of pop-up -or- auto-apply, so you might thus pick the auto-apply method.

That's what I tried to say already: "Reset" is exactly the button you describe, and it exists already. I'm still inclined to hard-code auto-apply and dump the Apply button. Who would miss the Apply button and why?

I also thought 'Reset' went back to a cleared status...

I've tried to explain why I think the Apply button is needed, as I want to make the final choice as to disposition when swapping to another UDC...yes, I could 'Cancel' out at main level but what about when I've made some changes I want to keep and some I didn't...having the 'Apply' at the item level gives me that choice essentially.

[zer0]

I've tried to explain why I think the Apply button is needed, as I want to make the final choice as to disposition when swapping to another UDC...yes, I could 'Cancel' out at main level but what about when I've made some changes I want to keep and some I didn't...having the 'Apply' at the item level gives me that choice essentially.

And as Don said: Reset rolls back the changes that you do not want and auto-applying takes care of saving them on-the-fly. It seems all he'll do is remove the hassle of clicking 'Apply' and adds security of making sure that UDCs are saved, with an option to reverse the doings. Win-Win, from where I stand