Manual sorting

[panorama]

Hello - With the new manual sorting feature, is there a way to keep files / folders sorted the way I want them between sessions?

ps haven't posted in ages, but am still using XY daily and loving it.Also looking forward to Undo since I occasionally make misteaks

[zer0]

Hello - With the new manual sorting feature, is there a way to keep files / folders sorted the way I want them between sessions?

Not 100% sure on this (and no time to look deeper), but it's worth you having a look at Folder View Settings (FVS). I'd expect it to support this sort of situation and would like for it do that if it doesn't already.

[jacky]

Hello - With the new manual sorting feature, is there a way to keep files / folders sorted the way I want them between sessions?

Not 100% sure on this (and no time to look deeper), but it's worth you having a look at Folder View Settings (FVS). I'd expect it to support this sort of situation and would like for it do that if it doesn't already.

Not possible AFAIK, and the manually defined order has nothing to do with FVS (as in Folder View Settings) -- no reason it would.

I'd guess something might be introduced once DS will be there, as remembering the order would be nothing but creating a quick DS. Also I haven't seen anyone wish yet for something that I thought would be an "obvious wish", so here I go : how about a way to define a sort order through scripting ? (Or maybe that'll come with "creating" DS through scripting?)

[zer0]

Not possible AFAIK, and the manually defined order has nothing to do with FVS (as in Folder View Settings) -- no reason it would.

I'd strongly disagree with that. Reversing the order of words in that acronym, one could read it as Settings that govern the View of a Folder (i.e List View). So, why a manually-defined order has nothing to do with FVS? Isn't it obvious that having a particular order of files in a folder is where FVS can show its usefulness in as much as it provides the same for the settings that it currently covers? In fact, there's already a setting called "Sort Order" so it would be useful if manual sorting would fall under that setting. Also, if we go by the Wiki, it should have been already:

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Sort order (column, direction) : to remember the sort order used on List.

Is manual sorting not a manner of having a specific sort order?

[jacky]

So, why a manually-defined order has nothing to do with FVS?

I think, because while the sort order (i.e. by Name, Size, etc) is a setting, the actual list of items isn't really one, not to mention it would become a mess with all items renamed/added/deleted while we were away from that folder -- or that a FVS can apply to multiple folders (thanks to pattern), which would obviously make no sense.

In fact, there's already a setting called "Sort Order" so it would be useful if manual sorting would fall under that settings. Also, if we go by the Wiki, it should have been already:

Code: Select all

Sort order (column, direction) : to remember the sort order used on List.

Nope. "Sort order" here refers the what order is used, nothing else. Read again what you quoted please, it clearly states (as does the option itself) "column & direction," not the actual file list

[zer0]

I think, because while the sort order (i.e. by Name, Size, etc) is a setting, the actual list of items isn't really one, not to mention it would become a mess with all items renamed/added/deleted while we were away from that folder -- or that a FVS can apply to multiple folders (thanks to pattern), which would obviously make no sense.

I think the point of FVS is to take a snapshot of a folder and keep that folder's view in a particular state that doesn't changes as we navigate away or restart XYplorer. FVS can be used with one folder, or I can be used with multiple folders -- that's the beauty of it. So, if in a certain folder, you need to keep specific Word, PPT and Excel files together in a group, without having to rename them, manual sorting is the answer.

Nope. "Sort order" here refers the what order is used, nothing else. Read again what you quoted please, it clearly states (as does the option itself) "column & direction," not the actual file list

I know it only mentions column and direction, but the relation that I was implying in my words has more to do with "Sort order". Manually ordering items in a List is creating a specific "Sort order". Sort order doesn't have to relate to just a column and if it's forward or reverse. When a list is manually sorted, it doesn't obey those rules any more, it creates a set of its own criteria that specify the sorting order. Therefore, this criteria should also be allowed to be saved per a particular FVS configuration.

[j_c_hallgren]

Jumping into this discussion...to me, manual sorting is strictly a temporary status override that wouldn't be practical to retain in FVS since the actual seq of those items isn't kept for the long term either....so I'm on jacky's side here, which isn't to say that zer0 doesn't have a valid idea but it's not possible as I view it.

[zer0]

Jumping into this discussion...to me, manual sorting is strictly a temporary status override that wouldn't be practical to retain in FVS since the actual seq of those items isn't kept for the long term either....so I'm on jacky's side here, which isn't to say that zer0 doesn't have a valid idea but it's not possible as I view it.

Manual sorting may be viewed as a temporary measure and it currently is exactly that. However, having FVS include it allows greater flexibility. It's also beneficial when doing long-term storage, because it allows grouping of related files without having to rename them or creating a complex folder structure.

I think there's a way to keep everyone happy on this issue. If one wishes for it to be a temporary status override, then one can leave FVS disabled or "Sort order" disabled and the former is the factory default, so it won't affect people out-of-the-box. On the other hand, if people wish to make manual sorting more powerful they should be able to via FVS. I really don't see any harm, especially a user will have to jump through quite a few hoops to experience this behaviour, which they wouldn't do without reading the appropriate documentation (I hope! ).

[j_c_hallgren]

manual sorting is strictly a temporary status override that wouldn't be practical to retain in FVS since the actual seq of those items isn't kept for the long term either....

Manual sorting may be viewed as a temporary measure and it currently is exactly that. However, having FVS include it allows greater flexibility. It's also beneficial when doing long-term storage, because it allows grouping of related files without having to rename them or creating a complex folder structure.

Let's review a part of the description of this:

Code: Select all

In case you wonder why it's not found in the Sort By submenu: Manual Sorting mode is not a particular sort order but rather a special function of dragging. If Manual Sorting is enabled then dragging does sort items, else dragging does move/copy items.
If you exit Manual Sorting mode (untick the List Style) then the manual sort order is preserved until anything of the following happens:
  - You resort the list (press column headers etc).
  - You refresh the list (F5).
  - You switch to another tab and then back to this tab.
  - You exit and restart the app.

Notice how it says it's not a sort order but a special dragging...and given just how transitory the "no-sorted" results are, like switching to new tab looses it, just how would this be applicable to FVS and/or "long-term storage"? FVS would thus have to retain the items and the seq they were put in and that's (to me) way way beyond what FVS was ever intended to do.

[TheQwerty]

I really don't see any harm...

Off the top of my head this really creates a complicated data structure for each FVS.

Remember that FVS isn't always a one-to-one ordeal, but the FVS can be defined as a match pattern, which means for each matching location that you browse XY would need to store the manual sort order of items.

Because changes can happen outside of XY that's going to be difficult to maintain, so you also need a way to ensure this all gets update or a re-sync command that can be called by the user (making it more similar to Find Caching). In addition, XY needs to update this list anytime you make changes to it inside of XY (not just changing the sort order but renames, creation, moves, everything).

And for something a very small portion of users will ever want this seems like a lot more work than it is worth. Besides, aren't we going to get something similar when Don blesses us with Virtual Folders or whatever he's calling it?

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What you could currently do, and even tie it into FVS, is to abuse the comment field.
Manually Sort the items.
Apply an incremental comment to the items. (Maybe append 'MS:#####' to them)
Enable Automatic Sorting
Sort by Comment.

Then you can use those settings as a FVS for any location that you want to always see "manually" sorted.

[j_c_hallgren]

So, if in a certain folder, you need to keep specific Word, PPT and Excel files together in a group, without having to rename them, manual sorting is the answer.

Or following on to TheQwerty's idea, you could tag these files by assigning a common value to the group and then sort by tag column, right? Presuming that you wouldn't need to keep a precise/exact order but just want them together...

[zer0]

Let's review a part of the description of this:

Code: Select all

In case you wonder why it's not found in the Sort By submenu: Manual Sorting mode is not a particular sort order but rather a special function of dragging. If Manual Sorting is enabled then dragging does sort items, else dragging does move/copy items.
If you exit Manual Sorting mode (untick the List Style) then the manual sort order is preserved until anything of the following happens:
  - You resort the list (press column headers etc).
  - You refresh the list (F5).
  - You switch to another tab and then back to this tab.
  - You exit and restart the app.

Notice how it says it's not a sort order but a special dragging...and given just how transitory the "no-sorted" results are, like switching to new tab looses it, just how would this be applicable to FVS and/or "long-term storage"? FVS would thus have to retain the items and the seq they were put in and that's (to me) way way beyond what FVS was ever intended to do.

Notice how it also says that dragging does sort items? Isn't sorting items a process that results in creating a particular sort order? Yes, FVS would have to retain names of items and their particular order, but FVS already stores a lot of info so are filenames and corresponding line numbers really too much to add?

Granted, there are other ways to achieve similar result, but I thought of FVS in the first instance. I don't even use neither FVS nor manual sorting, so I don't know why I was putting a case in favour of it

[zer0]

Coming back to...

Code: Select all

If you exit Manual Sorting mode (untick the List Style) then the manual sort order is preserved until anything of the following happens:
  - You resort the list (press column headers etc).
  - You refresh the list (F5).
  - You switch to another tab and then back to this tab.
  - You exit and restart the app.

I noticed an interesting behaviour. Normally, I have my List sorted by Name. This is what I have done:
1. Had my List sorted by name and enabled Manual Sorting
2. Dragged a few files up and down the List in a folder (didn't navigate away) //this resulted in loss of sorting by Name, as expected
3. Unticked Manual Sorting. Dragged (left mouse button) a file from the List into a folder in the List

Result: List becomes sorted by Name as it was in Step 1. I'm not sure this is good or desired behaviour: the arrangement that I carefully made is now in ashes. I didn't resort the list through column headers, auto-refresh was disabled, didn't navigate away from this tab nor did I exited/restarted XY.

Is there a reason why this works this way and how can this be overcome, bearing in mind that (left button) DnDing in Manual Sorting mode isn't possible and right mouse button DnDing makes List go back to Step 1?

[zer0]

One more question regarding 'Manual Sorting'...

If it's such a temporary behaviour, because a lot of things can trigger its reset, then why ticking/unticking it results in 'Save All Settings' TB button changing status? It's not a behaviour that is kept between sessions, so it's unclear to me why it'd count as dirty

[Muroph]

One more question regarding 'Manual Sorting'...

If it's such a temporary behaviour, because a lot of things can trigger its reset, then why ticking/unticking it results in 'Save All Settings' TB button changing status? It's not a behaviour that is kept between sessions, so it's unclear to me why it'd count as dirty

the sort order is temporary, the behaviour is not.
if you enable manual sort, save and restart, manual sort will still be enabled.


a few suggestions/wishes:
i miss a quick and easy way to check if manual sort enabled, and also if the items' order has been changed.
a TB like the DP one would be great for this.
the "clicked" state could be used for enabled/disabled and 2 icons for the normal/changed order.

AR is suspended when the order is changed.
while this is nice to prevent the loss of the new order, there's no indication that the list is not up to date.

i also agree with zer0 that the new order should be less temporary, at least not being lost when switching tabs.