XYplorer Beta Club

zer0 wrote:Since, ideally, the textual Menu bar would morph with the toolbar, one wouldn't need to go into Menu bar's "Edit". Through GUI enhancements, a person would be able to visually make a quick determination how to proceed. Once again, ideally, three ways *should* be plenty: an icon-button, a KS combo and the context menu. From my research, I noticed that the Menu bar is in the process of either being phased out completely or transformed into a better interface.

But be aware that there does exist some users who (while I don't understand why) don't use or display the toolbar so the menu bar is their only bar...thus the entry in menu bar that seems redundant is actually required to remain...and it's the one thing that is consistent among most every appl and most likely the first place a new user may look for Edit.

j_c_hallgren wrote:

zer0 wrote:Since, ideally, the textual Menu bar would morph with the toolbar, one wouldn't need to go into Menu bar's "Edit". Through GUI enhancements, a person would be able to visually make a quick determination how to proceed. Once again, ideally, three ways *should* be plenty: an icon-button, a KS combo and the context menu. From my research, I noticed that the Menu bar is in the process of either being phased out completely or transformed into a better interface.

But be aware that there does exist some users who (while I don't understand why) don't use or display the toolbar so the menu bar is their only bar...thus the entry in menu bar that seems redundant is actually required to remain...and it's the one thing that is consistent among most every appl and most likely the first place a new user may look for Edit.

Sure! Having thought about it, it'd wise to keep the Menu bar (MB) on two conditions: the functionality isn't duplicated between MB and ComboBar (let's call it like that for now ) and it'd be possible to hide it. That being said, the Menu bar will have to undergo a serious detox session both in terms of how many menus and menu items there are. We must aim for less than 10 menus in MB (currently there are 11) and 7 or less menu items per menu (currently there's a tie at 19 in "Edit" and "Go" for the highest number).

zer0 wrote:That being said, the Menu bar will have to undergo a serious detox session both in terms of how many menus and menu items there are. We must aim for less than 10 menus in MB (currently there are 11) and 7 or less menu items per menu (currently there's a tie at 19 in "Edit" and "Go" for the highest number).

And why are those nbrs so critical?
For comparison, let's look at a couple of other popular products:
x2 -- a well known FM -- has 11 MB items, and 16 items in View & Mark...ok, so less than 19 but not by much...and 12 items in two other menus, 14 in two others....and I don't find that to be too many.

FreeCommander -- lesser known -- has only 6 MB items...BUT...has 18, 17, 12, 19, 9 and 5 items in those menus.

And from another product type: Adobe Photoshop Elements -- has 10 MB items, and has 21 items on two menus!

I think with some of the menu compression that was done recently that these menus are still within typical norms and not an issue to most users.

j_c_hallgren wrote:

zer0 wrote:That being said, the Menu bar will have to undergo a serious detox session both in terms of how many menus and menu items there are. We must aim for less than 10 menus in MB (currently there are 11) and 7 or less menu items per menu (currently there's a tie at 19 in "Edit" and "Go" for the highest number).

And why are those nbrs so critical?

Those numbers come from "Windows User Experience Interaction Guidelines" by Microsoft where it states: "Don't have more than 10 menu categories. Too many menu categories is overwhelming and makes the menu bar difficult to use." Regarding the number of menu items, I misread so it's not 7 (it's 25). However, a good detox will filter out all but the essential items

zer0 wrote:

admin wrote:Same here. Terms like "cognitive patterns" and "evolutionary biology" ring in my ears like chocolate and cream in other people's ears. Now we can start talking.

Great! Let's get cracking.

It's a well-known fact that XYplorer has a lot of features that are accessible using the GUI All of those features can be classed into two categories: FRONT and BACK. The FRONT features are the ones most of us use very often (so we are more familiar with them) and BACK are the ones we use infrequently (if ever). That's not to say that they are redundant, not all -- while we may use them less often, we do rely on them being there. If we psychologically increase the motivation of people to use those BACK features, people will get even better value out of XYplorer -- value is very important to humans. Nearly everything has a value and the greater it is the more we care, so we engage emotionally. In order to psychologically increase a value of a GUI and reduce user friction, the GUI's usability would need improvement.

Let's think about this: what do we know about people? We're afraid of change (no connotation needed ), we like patterns (they reduce change and create logical links in our cognition), we like to order and organise things (to be more efficient and better at something), we're lazy (no offence! ), we're highly visual thinkers and learners (images and colours that we can identify with in the real-world), we respond to our name and first-person clues (why do you think they called "My Documents" like that? ) and we don't like making choices even though we like choice (the most famous study to support the former was by Mark R. Lepper and Sheena S. Iyengar).

So how can we apply the above to create an engaging GUI?

1. Fear of change -- research shows that humans are masters of selective perception and learn quickly (for good or bad) to ignore what doesn't relate to what they are trying to do. Gradual -- just like evolution -- transformation of XY's GUI would reduce the "shock factor". We like to be shocked though, as long as it's a positive surprise.
2. We like patterns -- when designing an interface, it's crucial for similar items to be grouped together in a correct sequence. It's important to note that grouping must be done by goal (for example, do something with a file) rather than category ("Edit" menu). We are goal-driven. We want to move a file, we don't want to edit its location. Our cognitive pattern revolves around what happens to a file, rather than its properties.
3. Order and organisation -- this relates back to patterns. Having a GUI that is organised in a particular order -- either as we want it or as we still like it -- allows us to focus on our work and not have to think (lazy? see below ) where things are. We start to form instincts and do things intuitively -- thanks to a flexible GUI that conforms to our personality, we see how we think of the screen Allowing of Drag-and-Drop functionality (not forgetting a lock) of GUI components will come under this heading.
4. We're lazy -- life is difficult enough, so if given a way to do things easier and thus faster we are very likely to take it. XY GUI design needs to embrace the concept of least completion time, which is currently high for BACK features. Fewer dialogue windows, fewer pull-out menus, less menu text -- either we don't have time to read or we can't be bothered, or both. Software should "know" this and not derail our train of thought with dialogue windows and text that we have to read. How many times have you been interrupted for a minute and then couldn't think of what you were doing/talking about before the interruption? It does mean that XY will have to make assumptions, but they will be educated assumptions.
5. We're highly visual -- a picture tells a thousand words: a cliché but true. XY GUI needs to have more visual clues to make it more intuitive. We process images quicker than text. XY's GUI is too textual. An image is one of the first non-verbal forms of communication in humans. Stone Age people have been carving and drawing on rocks. Thousands of years later, we still "adore" images. Images engage our cognitive, psychomotor and affective domains. Here's an interesting paper on the subject: http://celt.ust.hk/TLSymp/paper/21_li_celt%20v2.pdf for those who want to delve deeper
6. Our name and first-person clues -- My Documents/Music/Pictures/etc. We identify with and relate to things that "get personal". It establishes a bond between a person and the other party. This bond relies on trust: another benefit. XY GUI needs to become more personal, more relevant to who's using this software. An example: user-defined commands. I cannot help but feel abstracted from this feature. In all honesty, the way it's called makes me think that some user, from somewhere, defined some commands . Obviously, it was me who did it, but I don't feel that way. What if it's called "My/Your Commands"? There is no doubt that those are my commands. It makes me feel more in control and secure thus strengthening trust.
7. Choice, not choices -- in XYplorer, there are at least 5 different ways to cut a file -- all of which involve GUI. Excessive choice bloats GUI, especially if we're set on 1 or 2 ways in which to do something. Through sensible reduction of choice, we'll remove redundancy from XY's GUI, but still provide flexibility, where the situation warrants it.

Wow, that's a mouthful! Thanks for reading to those who made it to these words

Unfortunately I don't have the time to enter a discussion at this level of granularity now. Therefore a short general reply: probably each of your claims will be disputed by a number of persons that think/feel differently. My approach to GUI design is more intuitive/arty/egoistic: I try to design the app so that I like it. And according to this simple guideline it's not perfect, but not that bad either compared to any other file manager I have seen. I have number of plans for improving the GUI and all will happen this year...

zer0 wrote:

j_c_hallgren wrote:And why are those nbrs so critical?

Those numbers come from "Windows User Experience Interaction Guidelines" by Microsoft where it states: "Don't have more than 10 menu categories. Too many menu categories is overwhelming and makes the menu bar difficult to use." Regarding the number of menu items, I misread so it's not 7 (it's 25). However, a good detox will filter out all but the essential items

If we had 12 or more, then we'd be over that 10 by a much larger percentage, but 11 vs 10 is only 10%...and BTW, I just noticed that Opera browser which gets high marks for its design has 11 MB items.

Misread 25 as 7? Even my bad vision isn't that bad!

The one menu area that I'd like to get under better control are the context menus!
Do we really need 23 items on list context menu? I'd maybe suggest putting the six Select items in a submenu and also seeing if any other order of items might be more efficient as to usage...Are 'Views' & 'Sort By' the most freq used to be on top? Those can more easily be done via toolbar or other click areas while Compare and Select may not be as much.

Now, I've used a couple of other products that allow one to clean up the tree a bit (haven't found the perfect utility yet) and I fully realize that it's NOT just XY that has entries there (XY only accounts for 8 of my 26 on tree), but other appl's as well...every appl seems to think they are the only one and not all allow you to decide which, if any, entries to put there.

admin wrote:Unfortunately I don't have the time to enter a discussion at this level of granularity now. Therefore a short general reply: probably each of your claims will be disputed by a number of persons that think/feel differently. My approach to GUI design is more intuitive/arty/egoistic: I try to design the app so that I like it. And according to this simple guideline it's not perfect, but not that bad either compared to any other file manager I have seen. I have number of plans for improving the GUI and all will happen this year...

I have to call it like I feel it: very saddened and disappointed I have spent many hours researching, creating screenshots, making posts, trying to justify a [arguably] much-needed GUI refresh for the sake of making XYplorer better rather than just creating something shiny and "Win 7-looking". Turns out it was all for nothing. What a waste! I was encouraged by your "Now we can start talking", while as it turns out we can't. I was prepared to put in the effort: scrupulously inspect XYplorer, create GUI sketches, analyse workflow scenarios, do more research into HCI. This was going to be to me what Dual Pane was/is to Mesh. But now...what's the point?

I appreciate and respect that XYplorer is your "baby", but you should be glad to have your GUI criticised -- that's required for you to do your best work! Just like in my line of work, peer reviews are amazingly valuable -- they give me a perspective I never had. They give me the confidence to make a hard decision that I wouldn't have made otherwise. I understand that a GUI transformation is a lot of effort, but if you have a person (or people) who is (are) willing to do a lot of heavy work prior to implementation and for FREE then that's work that YOU don't have to do. When the idea of a GUI refresh began to hatch, I didn't think (and still don't) of aiming for perfection, but I would have definitely strived much higher than "...not that bad either...".

Would you be so kind (of course, you don't have to) as to let us know of your plans to improve the GUI? At least it'd be nice to know how far/close we are in terms of ideas...

Also, if we can go down the route of GUI optimisation instead, I am willing to put in the effort to review XYplorer against the Microsoft Windows application guidelines and come up with actions that should be taken. Those actions won't be radical, just smaller things like better handling of dialogue windows, better button labels, better menu system, better info tip display, better button handling, rephrasing of text, using slightly different icons, etc. Together though, they'll represent a substantial step forward in User Experience improvement. However, I would not wish for this effort to be in vain, so I'd like to know if we can work together to do some polishing.

zer0 wrote:

admin wrote:Unfortunately I don't have the time to enter a discussion at this level of granularity now. Therefore a short general reply: probably each of your claims will be disputed by a number of persons that think/feel differently. My approach to GUI design is more intuitive/arty/egoistic: I try to design the app so that I like it. And according to this simple guideline it's not perfect, but not that bad either compared to any other file manager I have seen. I have number of plans for improving the GUI and all will happen this year...

I have to call it like I feel it: very saddened and disappointed I have spent many hours researching, creating screenshots, making posts, trying to justify a [arguably] much-needed GUI refresh for the sake of making XYplorer better rather than just creating something shiny and "Win 7-looking". Turns out it was all for nothing. What a waste! I was encouraged by your "Now we can start talking", while as it turns out we can't. I was prepared to put in the effort: scrupulously inspect XYplorer, create GUI sketches, analyse workflow scenarios, do more research into HCI. This was going to be to me what Dual Pane was/is to Mesh. But now...what's the point?

I appreciate and respect that XYplorer is your "baby", but you should be glad to have your GUI criticised -- that's required for you to do your best work! Just like in my line of work, peer reviews are amazingly valuable -- they give me a perspective I never had. They give me the confidence to make a hard decision that I wouldn't have made otherwise. I understand that a GUI transformation is a lot of effort, but if you have a person (or people) who is (are) willing to do a lot of heavy work prior to implementation and for FREE then that's work that YOU don't have to do. When the idea of a GUI refresh began to hatch, I didn't think (and still don't) of aiming for perfection, but I would have definitely strived much higher than "...not that bad either...".

Would you be so kind (of course, you don't have to) as to let us know of your plans to improve the GUI? At least it'd be nice to know how far/close we are in terms of ideas...

Also, if we can go down the route of GUI optimisation instead, I am willing to put in the effort to review XYplorer against the Microsoft Windows application guidelines and come up with actions that should be taken. Those actions won't be radical, just smaller things like better handling of dialogue windows, better button labels, better menu system, better info tip display, better button handling, rephrasing of text, using slightly different icons, etc. Together though, they'll represent a substantial step forward in User Experience improvement. However, I would not wish for this effort to be in vain, so I'd like to know if we can work together to do some polishing.

Come on. "Now we can start talking" is just an idiom. You started this thread with 10 or so elaborate screenshots just by yourself. Nobody asked you for it. You cannot seriously think that you can influence my course of development this way. Your last post sounds like you insult me of exploiting you and your "FREE" work for me. If that's the case then PLEASE leave this forum immediately in your own interest!

And a general note to others discussing in this thread. I don't plan a major redo of the menu or other major GUI elements. What makes you think so? Apparently you have no idea about how much work this is. And also keep in mind: I think about XYplorer development around the clock day and night every day of the year (including the days on the beach) since many years. I just don't have the time to write about my thoughts, because I'm actually implementing some of them. And believe a man who knows something about it: coming up with ideas is easy compared to deciding which of them are good and finally realizing them!

admin wrote:Come on. "Now we can start talking" is just an idiom. You started this thread with 10 or so elaborate screenshots just by yourself. Nobody asked you for it. You cannot seriously think that you can influence my course of development this way. Your last post sounds like you insult me of exploiting you and your "FREE" work for me. If that's the case then PLEASE leave this forum immediately in your own interest!

I started this thread because I believe there are severe shortcomings in the GUI that don't do XYplorer justice, don't follow usability standards and don't aid a user in discovering and utilising XYplorer's power features in an easy way. Just because nobody asked me for it, doesn't mean there is no substance in what I have been talking about. While I did not think that I'd influence your course of development, I certainly did hope that you'd take those shortcomings into account. I didn't mean to insult you, apologies if I came across that way, but considering there is so much you have to do you seem very reluctant to accept help in areas that need attention. Perhaps when you move to Windows 7 you'd see the differences and realise how far usability advanced in 8 years since Windows XP...

zer0 wrote:

admin wrote:Come on. "Now we can start talking" is just an idiom. You started this thread with 10 or so elaborate screenshots just by yourself. Nobody asked you for it. You cannot seriously think that you can influence my course of development this way. Your last post sounds like you insult me of exploiting you and your "FREE" work for me. If that's the case then PLEASE leave this forum immediately in your own interest!

I started this thread because I believe there are severe shortcomings in the GUI that don't do XYplorer justice, don't follow usability standards and don't aid a user in discovering and utilising XYplorer's power features in an easy way. Just because nobody asked me for it, doesn't mean there is no substance in what I have been talking about. While I did not think that I'd influence your course of development, I certainly did hope that you'd take those shortcomings into account. I didn't mean to insult you, apologies if I came across that way, but considering there is so much you have to do you seem very reluctant to accept help in areas that need attention. Perhaps when you move to Windows 7 you'd see the differences and realise how far usability advanced in 8 years since Windows XP...

Yep, I'm curious to see how usability advanced (the advances of Vista 1.0 weren't so impressive I heard...).

Again speaking very generally: I'm really not very interested in hearing ideas about how a good file manager should be or look. This is just blah blah compared to what people have to say that actually got work to do and need a tool for it. A good file manager will just be a by-product of the main goal: help people get their work done faster, easier, cheaper.

admin wrote:Again speaking very generally: I'm really not very interested in hearing ideas about how a good file manager should be or look. This is just blah blah compared to what people have to say that actually got work to do and need a tool for it. A good file manager will just be a by-product of the main goal: help people get their work done faster, easier, cheaper.

Sure, though since most of the work will take place (thus that's where the eyes will spend most of the time) in the Tree and List(s) it's dangerously easy to overlook what XYplorer can REALLY do, because that's buried in menus/tweaks. I think that the frequency of how often people ask about a particular functionality that is already present is a testament to that. I won't push this any further, but I'm definitely looking forward to what you have in store this year and maybe, in the meantime, other people will join in raising the importance of this matter.

admin wrote:

zer0 wrote:I am willing to put in the effort to review XYplorer against the Microsoft Windows application guidelines and come up with actions that should be taken. Those actions won't be radical, just smaller things like better handling of dialogue windows, better button labels, better menu system, better info tip display, better button handling, rephrasing of text, using slightly different icons, etc.

And a general note to others discussing in this thread. I don't plan a major redo of the menu or other major GUI elements. What makes you think so? Apparently you have no idea about how much work this is.

For me, having something that maybe doesn't always follow the guidelines from M$ is a good thing! Yes, they may have spent huge sums on research but that doesn't mean I agree and others likely feel same...I sometimes want a look that isn't as M$'y and XY and other products fit that niche...now that isn't to say that some minor tweaks here and there would be a bad thing but when comparing XY to all the other FM products I've seen, I think it has a pretty great look/feel already!

Don, I believe I do have some clue as to how much work is involved so I don't think I wasn't advocating a major redo...but...I wasn't proposing that (at least I don't think so) so shifting the 6 "Select" items into a submenu on list context would seem to be a valid request...if you invoke it on a item at bottom of list so that menu is above instead of below, it's quite a long way up to "Paste Special", espec if you have "Find Files" showing as well...and conversely, getting to item in "Find Files" when it's below is also futher than it could be...yes, it would be some work but I think it may be worth it here at some point in future.

@zer0;
Let me say from the outset that I have worked professionally for several years in product (mainly services) marketing and have done a lot of the theory, the courses and more importantly the actual graft of bringing a new product into being. That primarily started with market segmentation and is the key - you can have all the bells and whistles of a brilliant GUI but if it does not match the requirements of the market segment you are aiming at it is simply a waste of time. If you look at MS OS designs for the home user (and I have never been a MS fan) one can see how they have identified a market segment and tailored the product to the home user who, generally, has little or no technical expertise but does want to use a computer (play games, music, video and pictures). This is exemplified by the horrible use of My Documents, My Pictures etc. and Folders because all of these terms are more acceptable to this type of user. Mention the terms directories or cpu etc. then these users glaze over, same goes for Help or User guides!

So, what all this means is the market segment is a crucial first parameter in the design and development of any product and this brings me to XY. The market segment for XY is NOT your average home user since it offers features that are beyond their needs. As for GUI design of XY, I personally don't think this type of technical product needs to be totally 'in tune' with the latest OS but does need to look attractive and workable. I do think that XY as it gets more and more features it does start to become sometimes difficult to make use of these. For the expert technical user segment this is no problem as they are using a lot of XY on a daily basis so as it stands it is probably perfect in this market. For the lesser able user (me!) and new users it can be difficult to use certain features and it is my hope that maybe the design can incorporate 'helper' methods. But all this comes at a price - will the introduction of GUI change and 'helper' design radically increase sales in the 'home version' and will it annoy the expert user?

The answer to this is only known to Don who can see the sales returns and use the pricing and packaging to address both segments. What is clear is that the expert file manager market is not being addressed by MS. I believe (guess) the volume sales for XY will come from the emerging 'home' version as more and more users get frustrated with MS file manager as soon as they try to do anything slightly more involved. I were Don I would look to the design of XY not specifically in the GUI area but the need to 'help' users easily become proficient using XY features and assume they will not read the Help or Wiki and so want an intuitive solution. This is where it becomes difficult as experts rarely appreciate why XY is difficult to use by others. That said, there are already 'helper' routines in XY (scripting, renaming) but I would like to see even more IF the market is for the home version.

Finally, I recall a conversation many years ago with the design team of mainframes and the discussion was about introducing a multi-colour character display monitor - it was kicked out of touch - only appeals to accountants! So, it had to wait until the prices dropped and PC's were affordable and the kids demanded colour and music and then programming languages went ballistic to accommodate the change from character based displays. It used to be so easy to program reports!

j_c_hallgren wrote:For me, having something that maybe doesn't always follow the guidelines from M$ is a good thing! Yes, they may have spent huge sums on research but that doesn't mean I agree and others likely feel same...I sometimes want a look that isn't as M$'y and XY and other products fit that niche...now that isn't to say that some minor tweaks here and there would be a bad thing but when comparing XY to all the other FM products I've seen, I think it has a pretty great look/feel already!

I think that MS are greatly placed to define user experience standards. They, without exaggeration, own the PC OS platform (91.26% share as of November 2009), so it's only natural that they should specify the standards for applications that run on their platform. Also, having user experience standards implemented in all Windows applications would be a good thing, because not only all applications and their users will benefit, but having a common UI concepts would ease user transition between applications.

As for the comparison with other FM products, I'm not sure if that's appropriate. A comparison win Total Commander is definitely not valid, because it's an orthodox file manager whereas XYplorer is a navigational file manager, so GUI expectations differ. For the rest...well, XYplorer shouldn't compare itself so strongly to other file managers and be guided by what they do. I feel that that stifles innovation. While in comparison, the look/feel maybe good I think it's not until I read Microsoft's User Experience Guidelines I realised how many things can be done to make the GUI even better.

graham wrote:If I were Don I would look to the design of XY not specifically in the GUI area but the need to 'help' users easily become proficient using XY features and assume they will not read the Help or Wiki and so want an intuitive solution.

I believe the best way to do that would be to have a better GUI. An example of my own, if I may. MS Office 1.0 started with about a 100 features back in 1990. 20 years later, it has thousands of features. The Office team invented the Ribbon specifically to address the fact that all this power functionality was buried in an ineffective GUI. More than 2.5 million people downloaded Office 2010 beta. More than 2 out of every 3 people who responded to the survey by Microsoft last month said that the Ribbon makes it easier to discover new features. That's a phenomenal statistic that shows how many people recognise importance of usability and the role that GUI plays in learning and using a product's features.

zer0 wrote:As for the comparison with other FM products, I'm not sure if that's appropriate. A comparison win Total Commander is definitely not valid, because it's an orthodox file manager whereas XYplorer is a navigational file manager, so GUI expectations differ. For the rest...well, XYplorer shouldn't compare itself so strongly to other file managers and be guided by what they do. I feel that that stifles innovation.

I don't want to stifle innovation but I also definitely feel that we need to stay somewhat in tune with the FM competition as anyone who is used to those products may avoid XY if it differs too radically...yes, some may welcome the change but I think more ppl would like something that is closer to familiar than not.

And I think that even comparing to orthodox FM's is valid up to a point as we're trying to convert them to XY as well...