XYplorer Beta Club

zer0 wrote:Looks do matter [to me]. As someone who has been using Vista and Win 7 for the past few years (combined), I frown if screenshots of a particular consumer software product are taken in Windows XP. I find it more difficult to relate to that software. If it's a piece of software that I will use for several hours a day then looks are a big deal. If it's "set it and forget it" application that runs in system tray then bad GUI isn't an issue, because I encounter far less often.

Looks matter to me as well...but in a different way...if it looks like it's been in any way 'Apple-ized' or 'Mac-ified', I won't get anywhere near it...and Win7 looks to me that way...that's part of reason I can't stand Firefox...even with some customization, it still doesn't look like my PC-style.

j_c_hallgren wrote:Looks matter to me as well...but in a different way...if it looks like it's been in any way 'Apple-ized' or 'Mac-ified', I won't get anywhere near it...and Win7 looks to me that way...that's part of reason I can't stand Firefox...even with some customization, it still doesn't look like my PC-style.

The unfortunate truth is that it is impossible to please everyone, we are all different. IIRC, with Windows 95/98/Me/2k, more attention was given to functionality than looks. However, with arrival of Windows XP, the community of skinners, visual style creators, etc grew tremendously. The trend has continued with Vista/Win 7, though less so, because out-of-the-box the UI is really good (and one can switch it to Classic, if desired). The plank is being raised all the time. Everyone is copying GUI elements from everyone else during browser wars. It's inevitable.

At the end of a day, the more often I use a program the more important it is to me that the GUI looks the part. That's why the state of GUIs in XYplorer, Firefox, Outlook and Windows Live Mail matter to me. It should go without saying that the better the GUI is, the easier one is able to do one's job. In this situation, the easier it is for one to do one's job the more one will be able to enjoy doing it. The more I enjoy doing a job using a program the more I like that program. Simples

JC wrote:

Looks matter to me as well...but in a different way...if it looks like it's been in any way 'Apple-ized' or 'Mac-ified', I won't get anywhere near it...and Win7 looks to me that way...that's part of reason I can't stand Firefox...even with some customization, it still doesn't look like my PC-style.

Completely understand you have your personal preferences but in terms of product sales and product life what if your views, above, are inverted and that the majority disagree with you! I too hate the style of modern cars especially the modern recent Eastern design influence but it is a strange thing that familiarity does play tricks with the brain and on seeing older style cars I often think how outdated the design is but then follow up with the reasoning that it is a classic design and so forgiven!

Just wanted to say: I personally am very glad that XYplorer has a functional, "old-school" UI. That's exactly why I bought it, because I missed the old-school XP explorer. I hope it will stay this way.

Special comment on rounded corners: I don't know why they have become so trendy, but I personally hate them. I like the tabs in XYplorer exactly the way they are.

j_c_hallgren wrote:Looks matter to me as well...but in a different way...if it looks like it's been in any way 'Apple-ized' or 'Mac-ified', I won't get anywhere near it...and Win7 looks to me that way...

Couldn't agree more.

rhoelzl wrote:Just wanted to say: I personally am very glad that XYplorer has a functional, "old-school" UI. That's exactly why I bought it, because I missed the old-school XP explorer. I hope it will stay this way.

When it comes to GUI discussions, there are probably as many opinions are there are users. One man's blessing could well be another man's pain. What you also seem to highlight is an importance of UI when deliberating a potential purchase. Its current state suits you, but a Vista/Win 7 user may look at it and be turned off by what he/she sees.

A GUI can remain functional without loosing its look. Most of my suggestions revolve around background transformation rather than removal. The functionality remains there, it will just need presenting in a more accessible and intuitive way. There is no doubt that XYplorer is a powerful file system manager. However, there are 2 drawbacks. The first is power. Power, by itself, means relatively little. It needs to be funnelled in a particular fashion so to make the most of it and reduce waste. The second is lack of GUI focus. Too much effort went into providing the functionality and little (relatively, so it appears) into presenting it in an intuitive manner. I was also intrigued by a person asking the other day about having different XY modes which would show appropriate layout, Tree/List styles, etc. It's about making XYplorer relevant. The first step has already been taken: we have "Features" in "Configuration", so certain features can be "removed". More relevant product = better product

Please also be aware that while your habit of working and the GUI that you use are not likely to change, the overall standards and norms evolve all the time. The purpose and navigation of address bar, how tabs and their functionality are presented, fluidity and intuition of workflow -- those areas are but a few examples. Software needs to maintain harmony with the rest of the environment and not stick out like a sore thumb

rhoelzl wrote:Special comment on rounded corners: I don't know why they have become so trendy, but I personally hate them. I like the tabs in XYplorer exactly the way they are.

I respect that. I also believe I linked to a few articles regarding rounded corners. May I ask if you have read them? I am not trying to preach to convert you. You are set in your ways, but software evolves and GUI is part of software, so it has to evolve too. A design that looks that looks like it has been put together with a machete or a ruler is unlikely to look more appealing than if it is painted using a brush

rhoelzl wrote:

j_c_hallgren wrote:Looks matter to me as well...but in a different way...if it looks like it's been in any way 'Apple-ized' or 'Mac-ified', I won't get anywhere near it...and Win7 looks to me that way...

Couldn't agree more.

An issue with JC's comment is that he's a Win 2k user. What's was a norm in 2000 isn't necessarily a norm a decade later. Win 7 may have borrowed some GUI features from Apple/Mac (which though?), but it probably did it in an attempt to be "best-of-breed" -- there's no shame in that. Let's not be change-ophobic, fear of change is worse than change itself

As has been said there will be many different views on what styles and appearance should be used. For me, a big test of an application is how the presentation affects the ease of use. Now in the case of Win7 file explorer, I find it presents a major division in ease of use. If you want to do simple tasks the new Win7 FM is great and I find I tend to use it more and more however if you want to do more complex tasks then XY is miles ahead and there is no contest. I might add that when I had Winxp I always used XY regardles of the task (simple or otherwise) but not so with Win7. This leads me to conclude that MS have designed the Win7 FM to meet the mass market need of basic users only and in that respect the look and feel of it is, I think, very good but it is completely hopeless when it comes to more demanding tasks and is in fact awful! So, XY as a specialist tool is a clear winner but the Win7 design does show that the GUI is important. One of the things that constantly concerns me with the design and growth of XY is, unless you are a frequent and practised user, carrying out certain tasks are not always intuitive and the help guide is needed. XY is becoming massively feature packed and full of options and variations but to the casual user these are not always easy to decipher and doing so via the help guide takes a lot of time to learn.
Maybe XY is for the expert user only and as such perfectly presented but if XY wants to attract the average user needs then I do think it needs to address this. As to what and how - that is very difficult but lets face facts, users hate reading help manuals and prefer to be guided in some way intuitively.

Not every desire can be fulfilled in this world. Although I always tried to combine power and simplicity and elegance -- with the increasing number of features it gets more and more difficult.

The "features" feature and the Home edition are a step toward solving this dilemma by adding a feature to decrease the number of features. I might add some granularity to this later so that you can show/hide individual menu entries. The planned snippets feature will allow to do a lot of things in one swoosh, also for the total newbie.

It's true that XYplorer has been molded after Explorer XP in order to make it intuitive to all Explorer users. Now that Explorer Win7 takes over it seems logical to move along with the new model. OTOH XP is/was an extremely successful OS so I don't think there's a need to hurry in adapting to Win7. Maybe even to the contary! I get quite a lot of feedback in the line of "thanks for giving XP style file management back to me!"

I personally think the Vista/Win7 file manager is a disaster (especially for pros, but even for noobs), but I understand that complete newbies get along with it. They never have seen anything better before.

admin wrote:

I personally think the Vista/Win7 file manager is a disaster (especially for pros, but even for noobs), but I understand that complete newbies get along with it. They never have seen anything better before.

But you are making this assessment as a very accomplished technician who majors in file management. Most newbies, don't have any need for file management as such, they simply need to find files easily and this is where the libraries in Win7 have made this task simpler. I agree that for 'real' file management it is a major disaster but I suggest it is not trying to be a one. With ever bigger disk capacity (2tB) the need to keep files well organised is history (not that I advocate this practice) so file management is changing I suggest for both newbies and techies.

I totally agree that making any changes to mitigate complexity and flexability is very complex and bordering on impossible. Please don't take my comments as critism of XY design, given what it contains it is remarkably elegant and it is a failure on my part that I need a crutch to speed up learning in how to use it and then, crucially, remember. Those who are using XY on a daily basis for advanced file management tasks by virtue of experience they remember all the things XY has plus they are smart.

admin wrote:Not every desire can be fulfilled in this world. Although I always tried to combine power and simplicity and elegance -- with the increasing number of features it gets more and more difficult.

I completely agree. So do you see the future in adding more pull-out menus, tick boxes and relegating certain aspects into tweaks? The more features you will add, the more difficult it will be for a user to find something, such is the sheer amount that's being crammed.

I noticed that steps are being taken in the right direction. The "Features" that I mentioned before, the appropriate "X" button in "About..." window and, most recently, an ability to resize certain windows. That's just the tip of the iceberg though. In the past, software was created with little thought given to usability. These days, people spend their whole careers in UI design field. User experience is a huge deal and the more time a user spends using an application the more important it becomes.

admin wrote:It's true that XYplorer has been molded after Explorer XP in order to make it intuitive to all Explorer users. Now that Explorer Win7 takes over it seems logical to move along with the new model. OTOH XP is/was an extremely successful OS so I don't think there's a need to hurry in adapting to Win7. Maybe even to the contary! I get quite a lot of feedback in the line of "thanks for giving XP style file management back to me!"

Once again I concur -- it's easy to recognise the tones of beige and grey, so "persistent" in XP, being present in Win 7's XYplorer. On the other hand, one may consider you to be ever so slightly hypocritical -- saying that there is no hurry to jump onto the Win 7 bandwagon, yet you will be upgrading in the near future.

This brings me rather nicely to people who gave you that feedback about the return of the prodigal XP style file management. Since in a normal situation one would not be forced to upgrade an OS unless one wilfully chooses to do so, the most likely scenario is that those people have been forced to upgrade to Vista/Win 7 at work and wanted to bring their XP-style ways to their new environments. Is that your target market? As far as GUI is concerned, XYplorer doesn't belong on Vista/Win 7 mostly because, like you said, it has been moulded after Explorer XP.

admin wrote:I personally think the Vista/Win7 file manager is a disaster (especially for pros, but even for noobs), but I understand that complete newbies get along with it. They never have seen anything better before.

I think you're taking the wrong approach when assessing Explorer on Vista/Win 7. It's not meant for the pros. It is much better in Win 7 though and noobs, if they weren't so "nooby", would have appreciated that. It wins on several fronts against XYplorer: copying/moving files without freezing, context menus, libraries, freedom to add GUID folders, contextual toolbar that is relevant to a file that you have selected, breadcrumb in AB, lack of menu bar, preview window on the side, the list can go on. Some of that is forthcoming in XYplorer and that's great, but Explorer already has them and it's free and Win 7 has recognised the importance of DP with snapping to sides being possible. Hand on heart, if XYplorer is not to be, I'd have definitely chosen FM in Vista/Win 7 and I've spent less than 2 years on those OSes combined compared against much longer period with XP. Just as not every desire can be fulfilled, not every user can be pleased with how a particular GUI works. It's important to remember, however, that XP userbase is gradually eroding and it's not long for this world. You're moving onto Win 7, don't leave XY as an XP-era product. With ever-increasing complexity, it will only get worse if you do.

Today, I read an eye-opening article regarding designs of interfaces and how we perceive them .
I can't recommend it enough: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy/

Yes interesting and something many resist, loyalty and familiarity to the current, but inevitably things advance and appearance is a crucial buying factor. Same thing applies to product names - I worked for a large UK computer company (now Fujitsu) and we had to get clearance when naming/branding new products - this especially so for products selling in other countries. There must be sites on the web that show how wrong some names can be to the extreme of offending or saying don't buy this product it is crap! Unfortunately, the division between product marketing and technical innovation is wide. In true terms marketing, wrongly thought of as just sales related, should include all aspects of a product, including the technical input but this is where things get very hard.
In the case of XY I think a gradual introduction of change is the way forward but I do sincerely believe visual change is a necessity if XY is to sell in a future Win 7 market place. Right now Win 7 is probably mainly new pc sales and possibly Vista upgrades but WinXP will drop out of use increasingly over the next 2 - 3 years simply because systems will need replacing and WinXP is not an option for the many.

I'm not impressed by the article. If I have not overlooked it it skips a major point in aesthetics: subjective taste and individual experience and expectations. You know, I'm all for aesthetics, but if I learned one thing after making art and music for many years then it is: there is no such thing as objective beauty (and this is good, by the way).

admin wrote:I'm not impressed by the article. If I have not overlooked it it skips a major point in aesthetics: subjective taste and individual experience and expectations. You know, I'm all for aesthetics, but if I learned one thing after making art and music for many years then it is: there is no such thing as objective beauty (and this is good, by the way).

It'd be next to impossible to design a GUI if its aesthetics were to be based on subjective taste/experience/expectations. It'd be a narrow portrayal of those 3 criteria. That's why it's important to look to cognitive patterns, evolutionary biology and affordance to determine what makes a great GUI.

You've taken some steps on your website already. "Get It Now" button on the purchase page has distinct button features (unlike "Download" and "Buy Now" in the top right-hand corner). Each entry in "What's New" is identified with an icon of a circled tick. So not only do we identify with a tick being positive, but its shade of blue is easy on the eyes. Also, you used a green tab for Home edition, a blue tab for Professional Single. What colours are Windows XP, Vista and Win 7 retail boxes for Home and Professional? I wouldn't insult your intelligence by claiming that such considerations did not cross your mind.

While there is no 100% objective beauty, there is scientific research (referenced in that article) that explains our patterns of thinking, perception and expectation (when it comes to GUIs) are not governed by subjective aspects, but by our neuroscience, biology and a mixture of cognition and affect. A GUI is a crucial component of HCI and as such must inherit one of the most important characteristics that make us humans: emotions. Having an "emotional" GUI will allow humans to identify with it, trust it and gradually integrate it as if it were an extension of themselves -- the highest honours of software creation.

zer0, if nothing else, this has been a much more polite and educated discussion compared to some I've seen on this type of topic! You know...the "your GUI is crap compared to product xyz!" style...

j_c_hallgren wrote:zer0, if nothing else, this has been a much more polite and educated discussion compared to some I've seen on this type of topic! You know...the "your GUI is crap compared to product xyz!" style...

Same here. Terms like "cognitive patterns" and "evolutionary biology" ring in my ears like chocolate and cream in other people's ears. Now we can start talking. (I only wonder what evolutionary biology did to some of my users when I look at their screenshots and how they configured XY... )