Tough words about GUI

[graham]

quote Zer0

More than 2.5 million people downloaded Office 2010 beta. More than 2 out of every 3 people who responded to the survey by Microsoft last month said that the Ribbon makes it easier to discover new features. That's a phenomenal statistic that shows how many people recognise importance of usability and the role that GUI plays in learning and using a product's features.

I have a love hate relationship with the ribbon - it is a radically new concept that works some of the time and other times is awful. That said it has potential. Why the big download - well MS office has been a dominent app in the work place but this may be because it offers a standard for employers.

Another thing that annoys me to almost ditching MS is the constant desire for feedback when you spend enless circular trips in the help and you get "was this information helpful?". Look at MS Office 2007 Word - and see if the help is obvious - the icon is there but from a GUI design seems to say only use this if you are absolutely insane!

Another memory triggered about marketing surveys - I was attempting to get marketing data on the UK Water industry and used a professional external marketing company - their first response to hearing the brief - "what answer do you want?"!

[zer0]

I don't want to stifle innovation but I also definitely feel that we need to stay somewhat in tune with the FM competition as anyone who is used to those products may avoid XY if it differs too radically...yes, some may welcome the change but I think more ppl would like something that is closer to familiar than not.

I believe if there is a valid justification for something and people will notice the benefits, then they will accept and stick with it. That's as much as can be reasonably done. From personal experience, I know that if I can justify to my manager that if I need to spend a substantial portion of his budget's money on becoming better at my job then my manager will recognise that it will bring a substantial RoI (Return on Investment) and I'll be more profitable to the company in the long run. It takes confidence to make such uneasy decision.

And I think that even comparing to orthodox FM's is valid up to a point as we're trying to convert them to XY as well...

I agree, but I do not think it is valid if "converted" users have moved on from orthodox FMs as a result of growing fond of GUI advancements they noticed in other products, which is likely considering that GUI advancements short of tabs and Dual-Pane seem to have been lost on orthodox FMs.

I have a love hate relationship with the ribbon - it is a radically new concept that works some of the time and other times is awful. That said it has potential.

No doubt whatsoever. For new users, it's a God's gift. For power users, the adjustment can be disconcerting, at least initially. The killer feature is that it's extremely customizable. And not just using the GUI methods of arranging the interface, but using custom XML too. The trade-off to hesitation of implementing a Ribbon GUI is that it makes easier to find (and use) features users knew existed, but couldn't find them, which reduces demand (and thus cost) on support and improves customer satisfaction.

[serendipity]

Just to add my comment here, I think the GUI is not thaat crazy here that it needs major revamp urgently. When i first started using XY i thought it was good enough for me to get around the menus and find what i needed. From that time the GUI has been improved upon and I am not telling its perfect, but its good enough for newbies to get to use it efficiently. Plus, such revamps need considerable time and should be done along the course of adding features. That way, bugs related to GUI can be squished much easily.
In fact, Don already mentioned that GUI changes will come this year and focus is on adding interesting features. And that should be sufficient enough for us to stop ruminating and leave this cud alone.

[zer0]

When i first started using XY i thought it was good enough for me to get around the menus and find what i needed.

From my impression of you in the time that I have been here, I'd consider you to be a substantial power user. For a power user, it is easier to grow accustom to such "traditional" interface. For newbies who aren't power users this is more challenging. Without being too subjective, I have a friend who has graduate and postgraduate degrees in Computer Science from two of the top 10 universities in the world. He is definitely a power user. Thing is, he absolutely loves Ribbon GUI Go figure!

[serendipity]

When i first started using XY i thought it was good enough for me to get around the menus and find what i needed.

From my impression of you in the time that I have been here, I'd consider you to be a substantial power user. For a power user, it is easier to grow accustom to such "traditional" interface. For newbies who aren't power users this is more challenging. Without being too subjective, I have a friend who has graduate and postgraduate degrees in Computer Science from two of the top 10 universities in the world. He is definitely a power user. Thing is, he absolutely loves Ribbon GUI Go figure!

Well, I said "when i started using XY". Back then I was a total newbie and I found the menu a reasonable extension of WE. I think as long as the menu is in decent accordance with the changing WE menu its fine for the newbies.

[j_c_hallgren]

Well, I said "when i started using XY". Back then I was a total newbie and I found the menu a reasonable extension of WE. I think as long as the menu is in decent accordance with the changing WE menu its fine for the newbies.

Same here! I came to XY after having used x2 lite for some time and TotalCommander a bit...and as I wrote above:

For comparison, let's look at a couple of other popular products:
x2 -- a well known FM -- has 11 MB items, and 16 items in View & Mark...ok, so less than 19 but not by much...and 12 items in two other menus, 14 in two others....and I don't find that to be too many.

FreeCommander -- lesser known -- has only 6 MB items...BUT...has 18, 17, 12, 19, 9 and 5 items in those menus.

So to me based on that background, XY menu's were just dandy! And they have gotten better since I started w/XY as some things have been compressed into submenus.

[zer0]

I think as long as the menu is in decent accordance with the changing WE menu its fine for the newbies.

Well, the WE menu has changed between XP and Vista/Win 7 -- it can be hidden, it's contextual and it has FAR fewer items. For newbies, the very heavy XYplorer items can be intimidating and require considerable time spent with the help file. The Home edition selling so well can be construed as a sign that a lot of people prefer simplicity as not having the power features means menus are "lighter".

Here's what Microsoft says about menus (and they do "practice what they preach") : http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511502.aspx

[zer0]

I realise I am being blunt when I say this, but what's the *need* in having it in "Configuration|Advanced" if we have this:

Code: Select all

v5.50.0003 - 2006-12-22 09:30
    + Menu View: added command "Auto-Refresh" for easier access. It is 
      identical to "Auto-refresh on file system &changes" in 
      Configuration|Advanced but I found this label too clumsy for the 
      menu.

a) It's unnecessary redundancy b) If it's easier to access in the View menu than Configuration (and that was the goal of putting in the menu structure), then that's where people should be going to toggle it (or use CKS combo) c) Removing "Auto-refresh" and transferring "In network locations as well" to a tweak will create some breathing room.

[ChrisW]

Regarding Windows' "My Xyz" folders, I think the problem isn't so much with the names (a rose by any other name...) but with the organization paradigm it creates. Guiding people into organizing their files by the tool in which they were created makes no sense; it's like organizing my house based on whether the items use electricity or not. I would recommend organizing things based on topic or project (each of which can relate to multiple document types).

Turning to the real conversation, I think that excusing any GUI complaints as a result of user demographics is just handwaving. The very fact that someone has learned XYplorer well enough to form well-thought-out opinions ought to be sufficient demonstration that they belong to the power user demographic that is putatively targeted.

Finally, I'm sure I'll get flack back for this, but a statement from the developer like

You started this thread with 10 or so elaborate screenshots just by yourself. Nobody asked you for it. You cannot seriously think that you can influence my course of development this way.

is incredibly rude of that developer, and I have to think that it's bad business. You can do this if you want, but don't be surprised when people are offended and choose to go elsewhere, despite the quality of your product and due only to your attitude and treatment of customers.

[graham]

Given that the quote from admin was shown in isolation from the preceding claims from zer0 I think admins respose was actually conservative and measured. XY has changed massively in a short time and these have been driven from user input as well as Don's own ideas.

I think XY will change even more and I include the GUI, but only when it seems best to do it and lets face it none of us have the slightest idea of what programming complexities make this product what it is and what additional complexity is needed to make any change.

I am amazed at XY and just what is acomplished and often smile when I see new users guessing there is a full blown development team behind it.

[admin]

I think "incredibly rude" is incredibly exaggerated. Where I come from (Cologne) it's the usual way to talk. Might be an inter-cultural thing...

[zer0]

Turning to the real conversation, I think that excusing any GUI complaints as a result of user demographics is just handwaving. The very fact that someone has learned XYplorer well enough to form well-thought-out opinions ought to be sufficient demonstration that they belong to the power user demographic that is putatively targeted.

Finally, I'm sure I'll get flack back for this, but a statement from the developer like

You started this thread with 10 or so elaborate screenshots just by yourself. Nobody asked you for it. You cannot seriously think that you can influence my course of development this way.

is incredibly rude of that developer, and I have to think that it's bad business. You can do this if you want, but don't be surprised when people are offended and choose to go elsewhere, despite the quality of your product and due only to your attitude and treatment of customers.

Thank you for your support on this issue Chris!

...lets face it none of us have the slightest idea of what programming complexities make this product what it is and what additional complexity is needed to make any change.

That depends whether you define "make any change" as a user or as a programmer. I have done coding as part of my profession and even changing a label on a button constitutes a change, now if that isn't easy when coding XYplorer then that's whole different story and is concerning...

I think "incredibly rude" is incredibly exaggerated. Where I come from (Cologne) it's the usual way to talk. Might be an inter-cultural thing...

I know a Senior Project Manager who comes from Germany, a great guy. A few months back, I and him spent a fair amount of time discussing differences in cultures between Germany and other English-speaking nations and one of those was use of language to articulate thoughts. Where an English-speaking national would say "challenging", a German would say "difficult". While those are indeed synonyms in the thesaurus, they are also far from being alike linguistically

[graham]

zer0 wrote:

That depends whether you define "make any change" as a user or as a programmer. I have done coding as part of my profession and even changing a label on a button constitutes a change, now if that isn't easy when coding XYplorer then that's whole different story and is concerning...

You clearly know a lot about programming. I spent 30 years working for a computer manufacturer, programming, systems analysis, project management, line management and marketing. That experience has taught me that whilst you think you know all about these things in fact you know very little. Program development is not just a case of altering a bit of code, even a button label can seem trivial yet in practice have implications that make it more complicated.

As I said, only Don is aware of the program code and it is his product so he can do precisely what he wants with it. If you don't like it then you can always buy another alternative. Don has a lot more to lose than you when it comes to making changes, it is entirely his product and his income depends on getting it right, he cannot simply buy another alternative. So, the point I am making is you have made your views known about the GUI, as have I, end of story!

[zer0]

Program development is not just a case of altering a bit of code, even a button label can seem trivial yet in practice have implications that make it more complicated.

A good point and the better one understands those implications, the better one is able to assess the situation in terms of how many dominoes will fall is a particular change is made. There is a range of proposals on the table, ranging from a significant overhaul to tweaks that can be considered relatively minor. Don acknowledged that it is a challenge to balance power, simplicity and elegance -- this challenge isn't likely to be any easier to deal with as XYplorer "grows".

If you don't like it then you can always buy another alternative. Don has a lot more to lose than you when it comes to making changes...

I think that your comment along the lines of "don't like it, buy something else" is clutching at the straws, so to speak. Also, I very much doubt that any wish that is made here is made with intent to cause loss of any kind. That being said, it is important to be able to have the confidence to make a tough decision. While we're happy to talk standard this and standard that when it comes to functionality, when it comes to User Experience standards (ISO or at least guidelines from MS) it's more difficult to get your head around it for various reasons. It doesn't make it less relevant though

[zer0]

With a recent redesign of the "About" box, I finally had some time to put together a screenshot with my thoughts...

P.S. Just noticed spelling mistakes...bolded are corrections..."...large chunk of beige..." and "...click anywhere on it..."

about_views.png (83.12 KiB) Viewed 2719 times