Tough words about GUI

[zer0]

XYplorer is a great file manager, it really is. However, as someone who spends several hours each day using it (great value! ), I am becoming more aware of its shortcomings in the GUI department. It's not its strongest suit, let's put it that way.

So what I did was to get a blank sheet of paper, download a trial version of XY (aka factory default) and write down all the GUI deficiencies that I encountered. I then took series of screenshots, highlighted areas of concern and added comments to them. Those screenshots have been uploaded onto the Web and the links are below

http://i48.tinypic.com/111unnb.png
http://i50.tinypic.com/2zjdg7p.png
http://i49.tinypic.com/2ztac1c.png
http://i47.tinypic.com/ibkkfq.png
http://i45.tinypic.com/2ykgzs1.png
http://i49.tinypic.com/m8k192.png
http://i49.tinypic.com/2hhet7l.png
http://i47.tinypic.com/24l3hp4.png

Now I don't expect everyone to agree with my comments. However, in terms of usability, accessibility, presentation, "look and feel" and GUI de facto standards I stand fully behind what's mentioned on those pictures. I hope that Don will take this feedback and incorporate it to make XYplorer's GUI better than it is right now. Those GUI changes 2 years ago are a long way away and XY grew a lot since then, so I believe some more polishing is needed for better product experience

[admin]

Ain't about bugs. I moved this thing into wishes.

Now, as long as XY's "look and feel" is better than TC's "look and fear" I don't worry too much about the GUI.

[j_c_hallgren]

I then took series of screenshots, highlighted areas of concern and added comments to them.
http://i49.tinypic.com/2hhet7l.png

Now I don't expect everyone to agree with my comments. However, in terms of usability, accessibility, presentation, "look and feel" and GUI de facto standards I stand fully behind what's mentioned on those pictures.

So you think that not having direct access to two of the more important topics in Help would be better in terms of usability? Even though I don't use these often, I find it quite handy to be able to do so!

I haven't looked at the other screenprints fully yet....

[ramza__x]

zer0 samples in http://i48.tinypic.com/111unnb.png shows whats i also thought an option would be nice

My screen under 120 dpi setting... the word bytes just got cut off at the end

[zer0]

Ain't about bugs. I moved this thing into wishes.

Now, as long as XY's "look and feel" is better than TC's "look and fear" I don't worry too much about the GUI.

I don't exactly agree that moving this thread to 'Wishes' is a good idea. Description of the 'Bugs' section mentions "...things you'd like to miss in the future" and all deficiencies that I mentioned I'd certainly like to "miss". Any bug report can potentially be classed as a wish, in that sense.

Regarding not worrying too much about the GUI, I think that may lead to some complacency and false sense of security. Further, I am sceptical that being reactive to GUI changes of another file manager is a good strategy. XYplorer rewrote file management history with its revolutionary MiniTree feature. Therefore, I believe it should innovate in other areas too, such as GUI.

So you think that not having direct access to two of the more important topics in Help would be better in terms of usability? Even though I don't use these often, I find it quite handy to be able to do so!

I do. Now those topics could be extracted and put in the root of the CHM file, so they're only an extra click away. In my experience, it is uncommon to put links to several parts of the same Help manual within 'Help' menu.

In addition, those pages, and any page as a matter of fact, of the Help manual can be accessed separately, via a CTB or a UDC. For example, for 'Scripting Commands Reference', use the following script (having substituted the path to appropriate):

Code: Select all

html("mk:@MSITStore:E:\XYplorer\XYplorer.chm::/idh_scripting_comref.htm");

or for 'Keyboard Shortcuts' use

Code: Select all

html("mk:@MSITStore:E:\XYplorer\XYplorer.chm::/idh_short.htm");

[nas8e9]

So you think that not having direct access to two of the more important topics in Help would be better in terms of usability? Even though I don't use these often, I find it quite handy to be able to do so!

I do. Now those topics could be extracted and put in the root of the CHM file, so they're only an extra click away. In my experience, it is uncommon to put links to several parts of the same Help manual within 'Help' menu.

I'm with j_c_hallgren on this one: I do find it handy to have two specific shortcuts to help information as well as the general entry point. In terms of it being unusual, I do see it elsewhere. Finally, the Help menu has 9 items in total; compared to the Edit menu, I find it quite manageable.

Some menu duplication (Move/Copy/Backup and Trial version info/Unlock) may seem redundant but can aid inexperienced users hunting a particular function. I can see why this duplication can be useful for such users.

The consistency issues with trailing dots, duplicate letters for selecting settings and greying out of menu items are probably worthy of seperate bug reports.

The ability to hide the menu and status bar may be useful for people with screens with limited vertical resolution (netbooks).

Regarding List Management, I can see your point but do find the present menu structure aids discoverability.

In general, I don't recognize your impression that XYplorer's UI is an impediment. Some of your suggestions I can agree with, but not your overall impression.

Finally, when looking at the road map I see several items which to me, seem to have far greater priority: XYcopy and Win7 stuff for starters. I'm not sure UI overhaul x.0 should be a priority.

[zer0]

I'm with j_c_hallgren on this one: I do find it handy to have two specific shortcuts to help information as well as the general entry point. In terms of it being unusual, I do see it elsewhere. Finally, the Help menu has 9 items in total; compared to the Edit menu, I find it quite manageable.

...but do those shortcuts need to be there (especially since they are accessible with just one click or KS)? Why are they separate by a line from 'Context and Index' if they point to the same manual?

Some menu duplication (Move/Copy/Backup and Trial version info/Unlock) may seem redundant but can aid inexperienced users hunting a particular function. I can see why this duplication can be useful for such users.

Or is it to cater for different preconceptions regarding where particular menu choices should be? XYplorer should have one clear place where such functionality is placed, because menus already have plenty of entries. Consolidation would do no harm.

The consistency issues with trailing dots, duplicate letters for selecting settings and greying out of menu items are probably worthy of separate bug reports.

Perhaps, though all of those are UI issues, so I included them under the roof of this thread. I don't think of them as bugs, but more as "unwanted behaviour".

Regarding List Management, I can see your point but do find the present menu structure aids discoverability.

Discoverability of what exactly? I'm not suggesting that those options should be hidden. I am, however, suggesting that they should be consolidated into one, easy-to-manage menu choice. This is particular emphasised by the fact that clicking on each one brings up the same window, so there's a common theme across this range. If more List Management options are added then menu won't grow, just the drop-down list. More should go on behind the scenes, instead of users' eyes.

In general, I don't recognize your impression that XYplorer's UI is an impediment. Some of your suggestions I can agree with, but not your overall impression.

Finally, when looking at the road map I see several items which to me, seem to have far greater priority: XYcopy and Win7 stuff for starters. I'm not sure UI overhaul x.0 should be a priority.

I don't think that XY's UI is an impediment, it's good, but it's not great. That being said, most of the deficiencies that I highlighted are cosmetic, they won't radically overhaul the whole GUI, but they will improve it.

While yes, I do agree that XYcopy and Win 7 are greater priorities, I also think that those cosmetic improvements can be done little and often as extras to each point release. This would allow big, headline-type features to shine in the changelog as XY's GUI would make good strides toward being truly great

[Plastic]

Just a word about the use of the ellipsis (...) in XYplorer, I think it is pretty consistent.

It's a common UI convention to use ellipsis when a command will need further informations from the user, usually by means of a dialog window.
I couldn't find an example where this wasn't the case for XYplorer.

Please see this page on Wikipedia for reference : Ellipsis in computer interface

[admin]

Indeed the titlebar is too small. Fixed that. The other things are okay with me.

[j_c_hallgren]

Regarding List Management, I can see your point but do find the present menu structure aids discoverability.

Discoverability of what exactly? I'm not suggesting that those options should be hidden. I am, however, suggesting that they should be consolidated into one, easy-to-manage menu choice. This is particular emphasised by the fact that clicking on each one brings up the same window, so there's a common theme across this range. If more List Management options are added then menu won't grow, just the drop-down list. More should go on behind the scenes, instead of users' eyes.

The only thing about LM menu that I see as sensible would be to extract into sub-menus "Find Files" & "Rename Special" as they have commonality...

However, I also would prefer that LM dialog be made similar to Config in that desired list could be chosen from table at left and thus easily move from one list to another...I posted a wish about having a way to better navigate between lists quite a long time ago and that never occurred....but even if one could do so, I still wouldn't eliminate the direct access to desired list as it exists now.

Addendum: Re "About" -- Do, would there be any downside in swapping the location of the "Ok" and the other info/text so that OK is on the right side to be a bit more consistent with other dialogs?

Addendum #2: Re "sharp corners don't look good": Well, I hate rounded corners and think they generally look ugly as I like square corners...that's a personal style issue, I believe...

And re "Toggle Active pane TB icon present even if DP is not on": I seem to recall that you don't use DP, but remember there is also the dual 'single-pane' mode and that's why the icon is needed at all times...not just when in single 'dual-pane' mode, ok?

[zer0]

It's a common UI convention to use ellipsis when a command will need further informations from the user, usually by means of a dialog window.
I couldn't find an example where this wasn't the case for XYplorer.

I could. 'Edit' -> 'Action Log...'. 'Edit' -> 'Search Templates...'. 'View' -> 'Current Tab' -> 'Tab History...'. 'View' -> 'Current Tab' -> 'Close All Other Tabs...'. 'Go' -> 'Breadcrumb.../Drives.../Recent Locations.../Tablist.../History.../Hotlist.../'. 'User' -> 'Manage Commands...'. 'Tools' -> Configuration.../Open Configuration File.../Customize Toolbar.../Customize Keyboard Shortcuts.../'. 'Tools' -> 'List Management' -> Everything with '...'. 'Tools' -> 'Control Panel.../Open Recycle Bin.../Empty Recycle Bin.../Recycle Bin Stats...'. 'Help' -> 'Tip Of The Day.../About...'. 'Tips...'. 'Assign Keyboard Shortcut...'. All in context menu of 'Configuration' TB button. 'Configuration' -> 'Thumbnails' -> 'Clear'. Please PM me if you'd like to discuss those, because I believe said discussion will probably take up too much of this thread.

However, I also would prefer that LM dialog be made similar to Config in that desired list could be chosen from table at left and thus easily move from one list to another...I posted a wish about having a way to better navigate between lists quite a long time ago and that never occurred....but even if one could do so, I still wouldn't eliminate the direct access to desired list as it exists now.

Sure, that's another way to do -- have some tabs on the left from which categories can be chosen. However, if such transformation is done, then the existing way will have to go, because having the whole list separately and under the umbrella of one option would be bloat-like.

Addendum #2: Re "sharp corners don't look good": Well, I hate rounded corners and think they generally look ugly as I like square corners...that's a personal style issue, I believe...

If you can spare a few minutes, I urge you to read the following 3 articles:
http://www.livelygrey.com/2008/06/rounded_corners.html
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?st ... ywhere.txt
http://www.basement.org/archives/2005/1 ... rners.html

You may hate rounded corners and I respect that. However, rounded corners feel "safer" and more approachable. Just think about the world, objects with sharp edges can hurt you, it's almost instinctual to avoid them or exercise care when using them. Objects with rounded corners feel less threatening.

And re "Toggle Active pane TB icon present even if DP is not on": I seem to recall that you don't use DP, but remember there is also the dual 'single-pane' mode and that's why the icon is needed at all times...not just when in single 'dual-pane' mode, ok?

...but, by default, DP is not enabled, so inclusion of a TB button seems redundant.

[zer0]

Today, I came across an article about changes to Firefox's GUI. Several matters that it covers are also relevant to XYplorer. Here's a link: http://blog.stephenhorlander.com/2009/1 ... ui-update/ An interesting read indeed

[admin]

Today, I came across an article about changes to Firefox's GUI. Several matters that it covers are also relevant to XYplorer. Here's a link: http://blog.stephenhorlander.com/2009/1 ... ui-update/ An interesting read indeed

Thanks for the link. I'm absolutely pro GUI improvements and good looks. And Firefox is a leading example here IMO.

OTOH, a product called TC is (still) leading the file manager market with incredible dominance -- and it's probably not for its hip GUI...

[zer0]

Thanks for the link. I'm absolutely pro GUI improvements and good looks. And Firefox is a leading example here IMO.

OTOH, a product called TC is (still) leading the file manager market with incredible dominance -- and it's probably not for its hip GUI...

I can appreciate that it can be tough to find a compromise in such situation (you wouldn't happen to have some file manager market share stats, would you?). I seem to recall that you're not trying to create a clone of any particular file manager. So your probable goal, correct me if I'm mistaken, is to be best of breed. I can't think of any file manager software out there that has a great GUI. They are all busy trying incorporate the latest and greatest functionality into their respective applications. That's a good thing, no argument here. However...

There seems to be a common preconception that the way an application works is more important than the way it looks. Yet it is possible to make GUI reflect all that powerful functionality -- that's the key. I remember you saying that "Home" edition is selling like hot cakes and that's fantastic. It maybe also indicative that a lot of people prefer simplicity to powerful features. Currently, the GUI has no simplicity, it's not intuitive and it's not pretty.

Looks do matter [to me]. As someone who has been using Vista and Win 7 for the past few years (combined), I frown if screenshots of a particular consumer software product are taken in Windows XP. I find it more difficult to relate to that software. If it's a piece of software that I will use for several hours a day then looks are a big deal. If it's "set it and forget it" application that runs in system tray then bad GUI isn't an issue, because I encounter far less often.

I feel that the more functionality is being crammed into XYplorer the more challenging it will be to refactor it into a great GUI at a later stage. Let's us not forget touch-screen technology. iPhone is huge, some Win 7 PCs come equipped with such screens and Tablet PCs already have them. Currently, XYplorer is playing, to a certain extent, catch up with other file managers in terms of functionality. Is it not time to turn the tables so those file managers will play catch up with XYplorer's GUI?

[graham]

As an ex-services marketing man I often remind myself that marketing is all about perception and not reality! Maybe TC has earned the perception it is the best somehow and as long as that perception continues so it will sell more. Marks & Spencer relied for decades on the perception of quality yet now they have basically ditched their European suppliers to remain competitive. A recent example was then selling a Sony tv with 5 years warrantee (Sony offer 1 or as a one off time limited special, 3years in the UK) and so reinforce their reputation for quality and reliability (the reality is that the product is the same).

XY in reality is technically at the top of its game but to attract 'new' customers (especially young techy types) I think it needs a bit more make it stand out and interesting. 'New killer features' help a lot but the competition often copy or counter these, however, the one thing that is always immediately assessed by any new user is the 'look' of a product. GUI changes may be the trivial aspect of a technical product but it is the predominate influence to sell more. That said, GUI changes need to be done well and gradually - Too big a change can be off-putting and have the opposite effect. By way of example, colour 'adds' a lot to a product yet many technical products can function just as well in black and white - colour adds a perceived freshness and modern look - just consider the icon changes in Win7 - totally trivial, functionally but they do look appealing.