Resort list immediately upon rename

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ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

admin wrote:Tomorrow's history:

Code: Select all

    ! With "Resort list immediately after rename" active, the list 
      should NOT be immediately resorted when the rename was done using 
      TAB (serial rename) or by clicking outside the rename box (immediate 
      resort is perceived as disturbing). This worked so far, but the list 
      was actually resorted when the name of the file to be renamed was 
      not changed. So there was an unwanted exception from the exception. 
      Fixed.
Forgive me, but I have some difficulty comprehending that entry in the future changelog. Would that make sure
that, if aforementioned tickbox is ticked, any operation, be it a click of a mouse elsewhere, pressing enter, navigating to another folder etc that would result in finalization of a rename procedure should be treated as such and result in resorting mechanism being triggered
?

If yes then two thumbs up, but if no then :?
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admin
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by admin »

ivan wrote:
admin wrote:Tomorrow's history:

Code: Select all

    ! With "Resort list immediately after rename" active, the list 
      should NOT be immediately resorted when the rename was done using 
      TAB (serial rename) or by clicking outside the rename box (immediate 
      resort is perceived as disturbing). This worked so far, but the list 
      was actually resorted when the name of the file to be renamed was 
      not changed. So there was an unwanted exception from the exception. 
      Fixed.
Forgive me, but I have some difficulty comprehending that entry in the future changelog. Would that make sure
that, if aforementioned tickbox is ticked, any operation, be it a click of a mouse elsewhere, pressing enter, navigating to another folder etc that would result in finalization of a rename procedure should be treated as such and result in resorting mechanism being triggered
?

If yes then two thumbs up, but if no then :?
Looks like " :? ".

ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

admin wrote:Looks like " :? ".
Then we have a problem because it means that you're discriminating against the kind of rename is carried out without clearly stating so. Even if you did, it's still a bug. Think of it as driving from A to B and, since there are no terms & conditions present, whichever route you take, as long as you arrive in B, you're successful. Same here, a rename is a rename is a rename, it's not communism where everyone is equal but some are more equal than others :P
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serendipity
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by serendipity »

ivan wrote:
admin wrote:Looks like " :? ".
Then we have a problem because it means that you're discriminating against the kind of rename is carried out without clearly stating so. Even if you did, it's still a bug. Think of it as driving from A to B and, since there are no terms & conditions present, whichever route you take, as long as you arrive in B, you're successful. Same here, a rename is a rename is a rename, it's not communism where everyone is equal but some are more equal than others :P
You missed this part:
Admin wrote:Ah! You currently have to <enter> for this functionality to work. I'm not even sure if I should fix this. It's a handy option to have the file either jump or stay.
If I understood right, if you want to resort after rename you have to hit enter. Clicking elsewhere after rename will not resort and its nice because user can now choose not to resort even with the config setting "resort list immediately after rename" enabled.
Contrarily, with the config setting disabled (meaning list should not sort after rename), user can still resort after rename by hitting F5.
So depending on what the config setting is, user can always control list sorting the way he/she wants. Now isn't that user flexible?
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Last edited by serendipity on 09 Oct 2008 00:10, edited 2 times in total.

PeterH
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by PeterH »

If I want to drive from A to B, and my sister, living in C, wants to come with me, I would laugh about someone saying that driving from A to B is driving from ...
Sometimes driving to B depends on ...

ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

serendipity wrote:If I understood right, if you want to resort after rename you have to hit enter. Clicking elsewhere after rename will not resort and its nice because user can now choose not to resort even with the config setting "resort list immediately after rename" enabled.
Contrarily, with the config setting disabled (meaning list should not sort after rename), user can still resort after rename by hitting F5.
So depending on what the config setting is, user can always control list sorting the way he/she wants. Now isn't that user flexible?
Nope, sounds like splitting hairs to me. Even documentation doesn't mention the "requirement" to hit "Enter".

I fail to see why, especially with that config setting enabled, a person would not want the list resorted, be it sooner or later. Using my A --> B example from the previous message, your suggestion of it being "nice...not to resort" would be the equivalent of intentionally putting roadworks on that route. My logic only extends as far as "if you don't want to get to B sooner then either slowdown or take an alternative countryside route". If people don't want to resort a list immediately then they can disable that config setting and use F5 and/or navigating away/back from the current directory as means of triggering the resort mechanism. I don't understand why people who'd like to get home in time for tea should be slowed down by those who really like the colourful cones of roadworks, so to speak.
PeterH wrote:If I want to drive from A to B, and my sister, living in C, wants to come with me, I would laugh about someone saying that driving from A to B is driving from ...
Sometimes driving to B depends on ...
This analogy is incorrect because it introduces a condition, your sister, who lives in C. The name of the configuration setting and the documentation that supports it place NO condition whatsoever on the specificity of rename operation. It just says "rename", that's it and that's how it should be.
Last edited by ivan on 09 Oct 2008 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
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PeterH
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by PeterH »

ivan wrote:
PeterH wrote:If I want to drive from A to B, and my sister, living in C, wants to come with me, I would laugh about someone saying that driving from A to B is driving from ...
Sometimes driving to B depends on ...
This analogy is incorrect because it introduces a condition, your sister, who lives in C. The name of the configuration setting and the documentation that supports it place NO condition whatsoever on the specificity of rename operation. It just says "rename", that's it and that's how it should be.
We have 3 views:
- how XY reacts
- what Don said in this thread and in changelog
- what documentation says.
The first 2 allow my sister to live in C - showing different reaction for different cases.
The documentation seems not to be complete, it seems.
This is my view - and you said it is wrong?

Why do you think you could decide that the program and Don are wrong, and the documentation is right? You can wish that, or vote for it - but not decide it. And Don could decide to change his mind, and change XY as well, or change the documentation - in this case you are wrong :roll:

By the way: in the old days filemgmt was WinExplorer - no documentation about XY. Don didn't mind - he created XY and added documentation, and proved the old docu as wrong :lol:

ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

PeterH wrote: We have 3 views:
- how XY reacts
- what Don said in this thread and in changelog
- what documentation says.
The first 2 allow my sister to live in C - showing different reaction for different cases.
The documentation seems not to be complete, it seems.
This is my view - and you said it is wrong?

Why do you think you could decide that the program and Don are wrong, and the documentation is right? You can wish that, or vote for it - but not decide it. And Don could decide to change his mind, and change XY as well, or change the documentation - in this case you are wrong :roll:

By the way: in the old days filemgmt was WinExplorer - no documentation about XY. Don didn't mind - he created XY and added documentation, and proved the old docu as wrong :lol:
The problem with assuming that every time you go from A to B you'd have your sister in the car with you is that to do so is fundamentally wrong. It is also partially redundant, because disabling that config setting clearly takes care of your situation and your needs. So yes, your view is wrong because it refers only to circumstances relating directly to yourself. However, the current state of affairs does not take care of the situation nor my needs 100% by having that setting enabled.

I am saying that the program's implementation and an expectation that is based on a direct interpretation are not completely fulfilled. Consequently, I can decide, basing my decision on the information available to me at the time of making such decision, whether any particular function of XYplorer is implemented in an incomplete way. Towards proving this I have been putting a strong case in this thread.

I am not staking this case purely on the basis of lack of clarification in the documentation. My main argument hinges on the fact that several ways of renaming a file are discriminated against when it comes to triggering restoring. This is done for no significant reason. Saying that "immediate resort is perceived as disturbing" and that "its nice because user can now choose not to resort" is extremely weak when that configuration setting is enabled. Why would you not want to resort when that setting is enabled? If an immediate resort is perceived as disturbing and you'd rather not resort right this second then disable the setting and both birds are killed with one stone. However, if you rename a file in whatever way you prefer to do, then resorting should be triggered providing this setting is enabled.
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TheQwerty
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by TheQwerty »

ivan wrote:Then we have a problem because it means that you're discriminating against the kind of rename is carried out without clearly stating so.
So the documentation needs updated but quite frankly exiting rename mode via tab, mouse, or enter are different things entirely.

1) Exiting via Enter shows a complete acceptance of the new name, but no, nor lack of, intention to rename another item. As such it makes sense to treat each rename as a completed and separate action.

2) Exiting via Tab shows a complete acceptance of the new name and a desire to rename the next/previous item. In this case the new proposed behavior fits the scenario perfectly. It would be extremely confusing, even to a user that desires it, if the list re-sorted between each rename. Thus it makes sense to treat this as part of any number of rename actions; that is to say Tab does not exit rename mode, but changes the item being renamed.

3) Exiting via Mouse provides no proof of the user's actual intentions. After all, it's not the mouse click that accepts the rename it's the focus of another control/window, even if it was an unexpected dialog that interrupts the process. Now, in this case it's not even clear that the user wanted to rename the item or that they have completed the action when exiting rename mode. Thus it's arguable that accepting the rename at all is the desired action, and therefore performing the re-sort could actually be dangerous since it can cause the user to lose track of the item that may have been renamed against their wishes.

Thus it isn't a case of "a rename is a rename is a rename."

ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

TheQwerty wrote:So the documentation needs updated but quite frankly exiting rename mode via tab, mouse, or enter are different things entirely.

1) Exiting via Enter shows a complete acceptance of the new name, but no, nor lack of, intention to rename another item. As such it makes sense to treat each rename as a completed and separate action.

2) Exiting via Tab shows a complete acceptance of the new name and a desire to rename the next/previous item. In this case the new proposed behavior fits the scenario perfectly. It would be extremely confusing, even to a user that desires it, if the list re-sorted between each rename. Thus it makes sense to treat this as part of any number of rename actions; that is to say Tab does not exit rename mode, but changes the item being renamed.

3) Exiting via Mouse provides no proof of the user's actual intentions. After all, it's not the mouse click that accepts the rename it's the focus of another control/window, even if it was an unexpected dialog that interrupts the process. Now, in this case it's not even clear that the user wanted to rename the item or that they have completed the action when exiting rename mode. Thus it's arguable that accepting the rename at all is the desired action, and therefore performing the re-sort could actually be dangerous since it can cause the user to lose track of the item that may have been renamed against their wishes.

Thus it isn't a case of "a rename is a rename is a rename."
OK, let's break it down. First of all, let's define what a rename [operation] is. There can be no doubt that a rename [operation] is when file management software has detected complete acceptance of the new name, be it intentional or accidental. A program cannot reasonably differentiate whether a rename is intentional or accidental and we shouldn't have to expect it to do that. Also, it cannot second-guess the user's next step and, therefore, shouldn't make one particular assumption and discard any possible others. Now onto your points:

1) Completely correct and, in this case, the resort operation is [currently] triggered.

2) You are correct that "Exiting via Tab shows a complete acceptance of the new name" but that's as far as logic can take things. Saying that by exiting via Tab you clearly state your intention to rename another item is a dangerous thing to do, because what if that person has no such intention? What if he/she accidentally pressed that button when they wanted to press "CAPS LOCK" (or any button within close proximity) instead. We simply don't know this beyond reasonable doubt. However, what we do know is that there is a clear remedy to avoid possible confusion - disable the configuration setting called "Resort immediately upon rename".

3) This way of exiting has the same thing in common with the previous two ways - it "shows a complete acceptance of the new name". Your example illustrates the possibility that such rename is accidental. I am prepared to admit that there is a chance that such possibility is correct. On the other hand, you fail to address a possibility that loss of focus (via click of a mouse on another area) was intentional, which it could equally possibly be. Whichever possibility you side with on this one, the end is still the same - a file is renamed. Just like with point 2) above there is a clear remedy to avoid the possible danger of loosing track of this file that has been accidentally renamed - disable the configuration setting called "Resort immediately upon rename".

In fact, by default, this setting is optional on clean install of XYplorer. This vividly illustrates that it is not something that would be applicable to everyone "out of the box". However, those who make the wilful choice to enable such setting should not be denied its full capabilities simply on the basis of possible pitfalls that other people, who wilfully enabled it, may encounter as a result of wrong expectations and their failure to read about its powers as stated in the documentation.
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by admin »

TheQwerty wrote:
ivan wrote:Then we have a problem because it means that you're discriminating against the kind of rename is carried out without clearly stating so.
So the documentation needs updated but quite frankly exiting rename mode via tab, mouse, or enter are different things entirely.

1) Exiting via Enter shows a complete acceptance of the new name, but no, nor lack of, intention to rename another item. As such it makes sense to treat each rename as a completed and separate action.

2) Exiting via Tab shows a complete acceptance of the new name and a desire to rename the next/previous item. In this case the new proposed behavior fits the scenario perfectly. It would be extremely confusing, even to a user that desires it, if the list re-sorted between each rename. Thus it makes sense to treat this as part of any number of rename actions; that is to say Tab does not exit rename mode, but changes the item being renamed.

3) Exiting via Mouse provides no proof of the user's actual intentions. After all, it's not the mouse click that accepts the rename it's the focus of another control/window, even if it was an unexpected dialog that interrupts the process. Now, in this case it's not even clear that the user wanted to rename the item or that they have completed the action when exiting rename mode. Thus it's arguable that accepting the rename at all is the desired action, and therefore performing the re-sort could actually be dangerous since it can cause the user to lose track of the item that may have been renamed against their wishes.

Thus it isn't a case of "a rename is a rename is a rename."
That's exactly how I see it.

I implemented "accept rename on focus loss" only because Explorer does it. I personally would rather not accept it. One could make that an option...

PS: I updated the Help file.

ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

admin wrote:I implemented "accept rename on focus loss" only because Explorer does it. I personally would rather not accept it. One could make that an option...
I just tried the latest beta and it does not accept rename on focus loss so I'm confused :?
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eurytos
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by eurytos »

ivan wrote:
admin wrote:I implemented "accept rename on focus loss" only because Explorer does it. I personally would rather not accept it. One could make that an option...
I just tried the latest beta and it does not accept rename on focus loss so I'm confused :?

It works here.

ivan
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Re: Resort list immediately upon rename

Post by ivan »

eurytos wrote:It works here.
Well it doesn't work for me. It works only when there is 3rd-party activity in the folder, but if renaming is the only thing to happen then it produces no effect.
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