admin wrote:"agree on a clear and simple concept" -- this does not mean any of these:
(1) Let's make XY look, feel, and behave like any of the typical DP files managers.
(2) Let's just add all DP features eve invented as an option.
If DP is an "all or nothing" for you DP afficionados, then say so now.
I'm no DP fan but I think it would make no sense to implement it half-heartedly. It's always the same: If you make the first step you will also have to make the second one. Because if someone really wants DP I think it's very likely that he won't be satisfied with anything less than a comprehensive implementation. Just a second pane and some other small changes are probably not enough.
But that's just my opinion, maybe the real DP fans see it in a completely different way.
bergfex wrote:Because if someone really wants DP I think it's very likely that he won't be satisfied with anything less than a comprehensive implementation. Just a second pane and some other small changes are probably not enough.
I think that I've made my requests quite clear in that, while I do want DP, I don't require as full-featured DP as some others here seem to want...I need just enough to eliminate my need to use x2 on those "special" occasions...so while having flexability of how panes appear (horiz/vert) and dual trees and such would likely be nice (and thus appeal to the hard-core DP'ers), some of those choices I could live without...but that's just me...
Still spending WAY TOO much time here! But it's such a pleasure helping XY be a treasure!
(XP on laptop with touchpad and thus NO mouse!) Using latest beta vers when possible.
admin wrote:
- other improvements (new features, improved features, bug fixes) will be postponed
It seems to me that this gets mentioned pretty often when the DP feature is discussed. I have no doubt the statement is true, but I think it's true of any big feature. For example, so far scripting has held no interest for me (I'm too lazy to figure it out). But... I recognize that scripting is a big new feature, it's unique, and many users are very excited about it. So it would never cross my mind that I should gripe that feature XYZ is not being paid attention to since so much effort is going into scripting.
So maybe for 8.0 those people who don't care about DP can recognize that it's a big new feature and many users would be excited about it (OK - it's not unique, but 2 out of 3 ain't bad).
admin wrote:
"agree on a clear and simple concept" -- this does not mean any of these:
(1) Let's make XY look, feel, and behave like any of the typical DP files managers.
(2) Let's just add all DP features eve invented as an option.
If DP is an "all or nothing" for you DP afficionados, then say so now.
It definitely is not all or nothing for me. I'm perfectly willing to be flexible and compromise. I do hope, however, that you will keep DP as an open area for feature requests, so that it can evolve and get better along with the rest of XY.
bergfex wrote:
I'm no DP fan but I think it would make no sense to implement it half-heartedly. It's always the same: If you make the first step you will also have to make the second one. Because if someone really wants DP I think it's very likely that he won't be satisfied with anything less than a comprehensive implementation. Just a second pane and some other small changes are probably not enough.
As long as Don isn't saying that the way it gets first implemented will be the exact way it will be when the last embers of Earth cool into nothingness, than I think reasonable people will be willing to be flexible. There's nothing wrong with a staged implementation and growth, if it's done right.
In an effort to keep things on track, let's try to get a more cohesive set of inputs from people.
There's little point getting into a philosophical discussion of what it might take to implement dual pane and whether or not it's worth it. Don has already been kind enough to agree to do this, given a few reasonable caveats. So this isn't about the people who don't care about dual pane - every feature has people who like it and people who don't. I don't use scripting in XY, but that doesn't mean I can't be happy for those of you who do - and I certainly would not argue that it isn't a worthwhile feature, even though it serves no purpose for me, personally, at the moment. I'm only asking for the same respect in return.
The purpose of this thread is to cater to those users who *do* care about dual pane. The invitation has already been extended, so the goal here is for the people who want dual pane to speak up and let your voices be heard.
What is primarily helpful right now, is if people post their interest in seeing dual pane implemented, and how they feel about the current incarnation of the formal proposal (whatever it might be at the time you make your post).
If you're perfectly happy with it, don't just stay silent - we need you to come in and say so. If you feel that something in the proposal should be changed, added to, or removed, post that as well so that we can get a refined set of criteria that everyone is happy with.
Mesh wrote:There's nothing wrong with a staged implementation and growth, if it's done right.
Would it help to try and indentify the absolute minimum requirements for the first stage? And then priortize other items for second/third/n'th stages...
We may have to compromise on what items are the bare minimums, but it may help the process along.
Still spending WAY TOO much time here! But it's such a pleasure helping XY be a treasure!
(XP on laptop with touchpad and thus NO mouse!) Using latest beta vers when possible.
Just to clarify - I posted to indicate my support of the initiative to implement DP and of the concept articulated by Mesh. I have no interest in XYPlorer becoming a clone of any other File Manager and I fail to see how my comment about DP and tabs can be interpreted as an expression of an "I want it all and I want it now" sentiment. XYPlorer is an EXTREMELY effective tabbed file manager - surely the tabs won't go out the window if DP is implemented?
I'm with other posters here - I'd be happy to have any sort of DP option implemented, XYPlorer need not be morphed into a fully fledged, optioned-out DP file manager.
As always, I have no idea about the technical difficulties that this represents to Don. I do appreciate that he is even considering it and will be perfectly happy with whatever he comes up with (or even if he opts not to implement DP at all).
j_c_hallgren wrote:
Would it help to try and indentify the absolute minimum requirements for the first stage? And then priortize other items for second/third/n'th stages...
We may have to compromise on what items are the bare minimums, but it may help the process along.
I anticipated the possibility that we would need to do that, but I was waiting until we had a finalized proposal and/or we heard Don's initial take on our list. If he's fine with the whole thing, there's no need to break it up - but if it's more involved than he's comfortable with, then it makes sense to break it up into stages - assuming he's okay with that as well.
Hi,
as I have not contributed for a long time, I was very happy when I saw this thread now.
I can see there are still some problems, and Don, you still would like to see some more people say what they think (well I think we had this in the past). I had written sth. some time ago on my computer, intended to offer to the forum, but never did.
It was the state where u said:" no DP!", so it might read a little bit of "defending the DP idea". But here it is (PS: I definitely want DP:):
I hhave to add here that I’m not very conservative and I’m able to adapt to new schemes of working, generally. So this is not the reason for me to use DP.
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Don,
At first I want to tell you that I have recently suggested XYPlorer to 4 colleagues. Their response was very positive, and they think about using this tool (well it were Windows Explorer Users, so there’s nothing special about them *g*)
Second, I want to add, that all of them asked instantly, or after some hours of working/testing, where they could find the option of sth like Dual Pane (they seemed to know this feature, and were missing it in their workflow they had, as it seems) . I had to tell them it’s maybe getting done in future; I also wished it would be. IT WAS THEIR ONE AND ONLY CRITIC, and it seemed very important to them. Okok, they don’t know that it can be done without, you will say, so I write these lines to you.
I’ve taken some of my time to create a list of the things I find useful using Dual Pane. In fact, I love XY and your fast support and creativity, and Xy is one of my most beloved tools – but: I had to reinstall Powerdesk, because I recognized I do really need the DP almost every day (yes you hear right: almost EVERY day, not only at work). I wish you could watch me for one day, I think you would recognize how important DP can be for some peoples work – But I find it’s not soo easy to explain.
Anyhow, I tried real hard for a year or so to exclusively use XY for my file work, but it did not work for everything I do. Some things are really hard to explain, but I will try my best to get sth. on the list which might convince you, as I definitively wouldn’t say I only use DP as a relict of old times: well, I never had ancient times on my computer, the first tool with DP was Powerdesk, and it is very comfortable to work with it (but sadly it lacks of stability, many of your nice & comfort features, support and all the things you do so greatly. Also, it got quite buggy and very big, and once its installation destroyed some very important system files so my XP could not boot (my SFP (system file protection) was off).
- direct visual comparison of folders without switching tabs
o lets say I have 2 versions of a folder on different places on my drives. I want to quickly compare files for existence, date, etc. That might not be huge lists, but individual content I want to restructure to my pleasure.
o lets say I want to pick some files from some folders, and copy them to a new folder. I need a view of that new folders content open to see what has been moved, definitively. It makes up what I might understand as “brainstorming and organizing my folder & file structure”. I have this issue almost every single day. I cannot instantly switch folders using TAB and then look for a new source folder I have to open. Lets say the target folder is on another drive, deep under the main dir. I move there, the tree to the left gets opened, then I have to open another source folder: now I have to move thru the whole tree list till I’m at the 2nd’s folder location. That’s weird and making me very nervous
o So the tree list often jumps to the wrong position. It should readjust to the position of the opened tab, but does not do this; e.g. if I copy from one tab to another. I also get confused cause I’d need one folder tree for every tab, separated from each other so there aren’t unnecessary trees open
o especially important when checking up for special files – much faster than always switching 2 tabs (especially when more than 2 tabs are open)
o without DP I _always_ have to switch and, lets say there are additional files or folders, I cannot easily find out what’s different in the folders. Or even more, where’s the newer content (remember, the file names must not be the same)
o This tasks happens often to me, and easy and fast access to such options is really necessary.
- It’s hard to remember what is in the hidden tab(s), so one has to switch to see it
o this is a problem when using lots of different folders on a system, not just a few favourite ones. Remember many people _do not_ have just a well arranged amount of folders they deal with.
- My Dual Pane should have a tree for each Pane on the left, and the File list in the big parts to the right. The separation goes from left to right, separating folder tree and also file list in two independent parts. See screenshot (sth. like first image on first page of this thread) what I use right now. Only like this I will have enough space to see details to the listed files, I cannot work with sth. as total commander, as the list is way to short from left to right for size, ext, date etc.
o Two separate folder trees, which are positive in the way that I only have the parts open I need, and no long tail of open directories when I do not need it (which is definitively very disturbing in XY)
o I always have to move all the folder list (left side) up when I want to temporarily move to another folder on another (network?)-drive. This is tedious. Especially, if several other folders are open, which happens when they are in use from another Tab.
o Not everything should be open from all tabs (in the folder list). Only what I need for the current tab. Closing and opening trees also takes time, at least several milliseconds (which sums up).
o
- I see DP definitively as an option, which could be switched on/off with the click of a button/hotkey (in Powerdesk I switch using ctrl-1/2/3 for single pane/dual pane vertical/dual pane horizontal)
o I might have to remind many people like horizontal, many vertical
========
sadly the text was not finished, but atm I can't think of many other things that haven't been said, maybe I add sth in future.
I have worked now for over a year using XYPlorer, and got very used to it, but still get the same problems with the issues above every day, not having an DP option in my work. IT IS NOT done with "learning a new way to work", with tabs or other XY features, sorry to say that..
..this is no offense..
Thx,
ReviewPilot
Last edited by ReviewPilot on 23 Apr 2008 12:25, edited 3 times in total.
I don't really care about the details...but, as a user of the trial version, and having been impressed my many facets of XYplorer...I will say that dual pane capability IS a deal breaker for me. I don't want to have multiple instances all over the place (eg my wife's screen w/ the default explorer). Ever since the first alternatives to the MS xplorer emerged, i've used dual/multi pane replacements and simply being able to see "from/to" at the the same time has ALWAYS been v. important. Currently use powerdesk 7...but it's become too buggy and bloated so i WOULD like to switch; also use freeCommander, but (and i know this IS picky) but i find it aesthetically unattractive. So XY plus dual+ panes would be exactly what i want - whether or not it's exactly what i need!
thanks,
bob mcc....
XYplorer Beta Club
