How about Total Commander like dual pane view?

[admin]

Quite some time ago, I created the following mock-up of how a simple DP implementation could look...since some are new here, I'll put it here as clickable thumb so y'all can see what I was proposing...ok, so having the dual panes horizontal isn't ideal, but I thought it would be the easiest to implement...

And in this proposal, the 2nd tab on right would be the "header" for the lower pane, and would need to be marked in some manner to indicate such.

I'm obviously no DP man, but I think that your proposal will not make everybody happy. Of course, what a trivial statement! But that's the point I want to make. DP is not a clear-cut feature thing like "preview TGA files". We are talking about an old user habit here, and habits a personal things. The whining will only stop when I have turned XY into a Frankenstein's DP monster, and when I'm done every cheap street DP manager will be better because it's straightforward DP and not a hybrid any-pane freak.

[bergfex]

DP is not a clear-cut feature thing like "preview TGA files". We are talking about an old user habit here, and habits a personal things. The whining will only stop when I have turned XY into a Frankenstein's DP monster, and when I'm done every cheap street DP manager will be better because it's straightforward DP and not a hybrid any-pane freak.

Great post, that's absolutely my opinion!

[admin]

MS dropped dual pane 12 years ago with Win95 and the introduction of the folder tree and never brought it back. Is MS also hassled by "Please DP"-whining?

That's an interesting question - I wonder if there's any possible way to find out? (doubt it...).

Clearly it's a dearly held preference for a large number of people. Just as clearly there are people who believe it's an abomination (or something to that effect). As for myself, there are definitely times that I'd like to use DP, but that's a once in a while situation. It's just a potential tool for me.

I think that if Don can implement DP as an option without messing up XY in single pane mode, then it's the best of both worlds. And it seems that Don would sell a bunch more licenses - that's gotta be good, right? Until then, I'll be just fine without DP and be happy witha new toy to play with once it shows up in a beta drop.

A little thing I always wanted to mention: technically speaking, XY is not "single pane" but "dual pane" as well. It has a tree pane and a list pane. So we are talking about tree/list versus list/list versus tree/list/list versus tree/list/tree/list. But, okay: SP/DP has become the standard lingo, so be it!

I think the majority of this "large number of people" (nobody knows how large, because the "single paners" do not whine; they are just satisfied and enjoy the single pane bliss ) -- they are not looking for an additional ("optional") feature. What they want is to combine the coolness of XY with the cozy warm DP home feel. They do not think about the technical aspects of this. I can totally understand this emotionally. But: It will not happen. XY is no Dual Pane file manager, and won't ever be one. Period.

The only aspect of this whole DP madness I'm truely interested in (and I have shown this interest again and again over the years) is to understand how a 2nd file list could improve XYplorer. No matter how hard I tried (and others tried to convince me): I never really understood it.
Yes, I see the sporadic task of visually comparing two directories, especially when content matters (like 2 lists of thumbnails), i.e. where biologic brain power is needed for the comparison. But of course: (1) this alone cannot be the source of all the DP fuzz, (2) there are many good softwares already existing for this task, (3) damn, I have a lot of better ideas to fill my time with!

And there's another aspect of this whole DP madness I'm untruely interested in: stop the whining + make more sales. This is a very tempting vision. But will it be enough to add a second file list??? I don't think so...

PS: As you probably know, Dual Pane is on the road map. So what does this mean? It means that I want to (1) get better reviews, (2) sell more licenses, (3) stop the whinos, (4) and add Dual Pane the very moment I understand how it improves XY!

[graham]

I really don't understand why you are so reserved about this topic and don't jump into programming action. Place a nice toolbar button called DP and on pressing a message appears 'UP YOURS' and then after brief interval for remorse, close down XYPlorer permanently.

[j_c_hallgren]

The only aspect of this whole DP madness I'm truely interested in (and I have shown this interest again and again over the years) is to understand how a 2nd file list could improve XYplorer. No matter how hard I tried (and others tried to convince me): I never really understood it.

Well, I've tried my best!

Yes, I see the sporadic task of visually comparing two directories, especially when content matters (like 2 lists of thumbnails), i.e. where biologic brain power is needed for the comparison. But of course: (1) this alone cannot be the source of all the DP fuzz, (2) there are many good softwares already existing for this task, (3) damn, I have a lot of better ideas to fill my time with!

In my case, it is this sporatic task that I have to use an alternate product (X2) for...for others, they may do that task much more often, and so thus would benefit more also...yes, there is software for that task, but why should I have to lose all the other goodies in XY when I need to do it? There are some things that XY would do better than X2 when using a DP, so that's why I'd want it incorporated...

And there's another aspect of this whole DP madness I'm untruely interested in: stop the whining + make more sales. This is a very tempting vision. But will it be enough to add a second file list??? I don't think so...

That's a great unknown, and I don't now how best you could determine answer, as some potential users have likely looked elsewhere immediately when they saw XY was not DP, and others have tried it but wouldn't stay...

But then look at Apple: They now have dual boot so users can run M$ OS also...that allows users to do what they want and increased sales, so I think the same may hold true for XY and DP..

[Alberich1]

I would like to comment on my reasoning for hoping XYplorer includes DP viewing. I believe it's faster to navigate folders using this method. It also looks far more pleasing to the eyes. The tree pane looks very ugly compared to a commander look and feel. A tree pane is actually harder for me to navigate because I end up having to scroll through the pane looking for folders. Very tedious. A commander like interface does away with this confusion quickly. Just a click on a drive icon and boom! you're there in the folder you want. No scrolling. The reason why it's quicker is since the folders are in "list mode"...there is no need to search for the folders in the first place. The folders aren't listed in a top down hierarchy. Folders get bunched right and left...making it easier to find the ones you want.

Some of you may counter "oh...but what about setting up bookmarks to those folder?!" That's true...but it's beside the point. Suppose I didn't know I'd have to find a certain folder and didn't make a bookmark to that folder beforehand. Using a commander like interface makes it easier to find that folder because when folder icons are next to each other left and right...the eyes are able to filter out the ones you want more quickly than using a directory tree pane. Tree panes force the eyes and the brain to "think about where the folder is" than just intuitively locating the folder by scanning the icons bunched up in a list pane window.

[mwb1100]

Yes, I see the sporadic task of visually comparing two directories, especially when content matters (like 2 lists of thumbnails), i.e. where biologic brain power is needed for the comparison. But of course: (1) this alone cannot be the source of all the DP fuzz, (2) there are many good softwares already existing for this task, (3) damn, I have a lot of better ideas to fill my time with!

For me it not so much comparing 2 directories as it is working with 2 directories and my brain wanting to keep some sort of context. Sometimes dragging files to a tab or a folder name just doesn't give my mind the feeling that I'm not making some possible mistake. As I said, this happens to me infrequently enough that opening a second XY instance does the trick, but it feels kludgy. The (minor) drawbacks to it are:

1) if I move to some other task, then getting both windows up again takes at least twice as much looking & clicking
2) if I close the wrong one second, I get the wrong set of settings saved

But will it be enough to add a second file list??? I don't think so...

Speaking for myself, it would probably be just fine (then again, if it's not, I'm sure I won't have to admit it since you're probably right that the majority of DP advocates will also not think so ). By the way, isn't this the type of dual pane that DOpus has?

[j_c_hallgren]

I would like to comment on my reasoning for hoping XYplorer includes DP viewing. I believe it's faster to navigate folders using this method. It also looks far more pleasing to the eyes. The tree pane looks very ugly compared to a commander look and feel. A tree pane is actually harder for me to navigate because I end up having to scroll through the pane looking for folders. Very tedious. A commander like interface does away with this confusion quickly. Just a click on a drive icon and boom! you're there in the folder you want. No scrolling.

I think the bulk of this post relates to another issue besides dual-pane! Talking about how a tree works to locate folders is NOT in any way related to DP, IMHO, but rather in how the hierarchy is presented, so whether there is one or two panes, this same issue exists.

And while I'm not familiar with commander, I kinda defy anyone to get to a folder that is 8 levels deep with just one click on that drive's icon...I never seen a way to do this without some sort of expansion that then would produce a group of folders that can still fit on one screen, and be readable...

I use XY's Catalog feature to access the most common folders I use, and then use Favorite Folders for some others, plus as I generally know exactly where I want to go, getting there hasn't ever been a problem for me...

[bergfex]

I really don't understand why you are so reserved about this topic and don't jump into programming action. Place a nice toolbar button called DP and on pressing a message appears 'UP YOURS' and then after brief interval for remorse, close down XYPlorer permanently.

[Gandolf]

...I think the bulk of this post relates to another issue besides dual-pane! Talking about how a tree works to locate folders is NOT in any way related to DP, IMHO,...

Just try navigating a tree with the keyboard - it's a joke!! As for Catalogue and Favourite - no use to people who visit dozens of different directories daily, they are designed for users with a few regular directories.

As to an earlier comment regarding why M$ abandoned dual pane, they don't expect most users to use a keyboard and if you are a mouse user then the tree is possibly an easier way to navigate. So, I would imagine, are toolbar buttons, never used them.

99% of my file management involves renaming files and creating new directories. You find me a mouse that can type and I might consider using it!! I can make dozens of keystrokes in the time it takes me to move from the keyboard to the mouse, let alone use the pesky thing to select anything.

I've been using XY, originally TrackerV3, longer than most people on this forum and I've tried to work in the tree-single pane environment, but everything is far more time consuming for the majority of my work.

I have great respect for Don and the work he does and think that XY is an excellent file manager, which is why I continue to use it for certain file management functions and keep trying to find ways of making it work for me. However, he has certain ideas about how he should develop the program, and I respect him for "sticking to his guns".

[admin]

...I think the bulk of this post relates to another issue besides dual-pane! Talking about how a tree works to locate folders is NOT in any way related to DP, IMHO,...

Just try navigating a tree with the keyboard - it's a joke!! As for Catalogue and Favourite - no use to people who visit dozens of different directories daily, they are designed for users with a few regular directories.

As to an earlier comment regarding why M$ abandoned dual pane, they don't expect most users to use a keyboard and if you are a mouse user then the tree is possibly an easier way to navigate. So, I would imagine, are toolbar buttons, never used them.

99% of my file management involves renaming files and creating new directories. You find me a mouse that can type and I might consider using it!! I can make dozens of keystrokes in the time it takes me to move from the keyboard to the mouse, let alone use the pesky thing to select anything.

Okay, I understand why you prefer a list to tree: navigation, create new directories, rename files, being a die-hard keyboardist. XY has a list. Why do you need 2 lists?

[Gandolf]

...XY has a list. Why do you need 2 lists?

I seem to remember we discussed this a long time ago - I like to see where my files are going to go if I'm moving or copying them. I still rarely copy or move files in XY because I can't see the destination. It's also quicker in DP, a single key to move or copy.

The way I'm using XY now is with the navigation panel off, so in effect it's a single pane and I switch between tabs. Hence my request some time ago for a scrollable tab display because the tabs get two small to see the directory names.

I'm playing with the idea, based on the AHK script, of having two instances of XY running and a single key to copy (or move) files between the two instances.

[admin]

I like to see where my files are going to go if I'm moving or copying them.

Would you agree that for most DP addicts this is the core need, the main impulse behind all the crying for DP?

I sometimes check the software statistics at Cnet and some other sites, just to see what's going and what not. When you do this, there's a blatant fact immediately jumping at you: angst sells! The big download numbers are all for software that's about protection from danger. The 2nd best is protection from mistakes, aka Undo.
If I'm right, then the apparent need for DP is also (if not mainly) driven by a feeling of insecurity: Did the copy really happen? Did the computer maybe just fake a copy? Did all bytes arrive unchanged? I better have a look myself!
I find it funny that people with such a deep mistrust in computers still use them. I find it even more funny that they are satisfied with a visual check, as if the pixels they are looking at would not have been generated by that same computer. BTW, I'm not pointing at others here -- I have no problem to admit to such irrational behavior myself. It's still funny.

[Gandolf]

I like to see where my files are going to go if I'm moving or copying them.

Would you agree that for most DP addicts this is the core need, the main impulse behind all the crying for DP?

It's certainly a fundamental issue for me, but then that security can be achieved in XY. Copy (or move), switch to other tab, paste and you see they are there; but it takes four keystrokes (including returning to the original tab) whereas in DP it takes one (two if you have a confirmation dialogue).
It's also possible in some file managers, for the really paranoid, to compare byte-for-byte to check that the files are identical.

...The big download numbers are all for software that's about protection from danger. The 2nd best is protection from mistakes, aka Undo.

I'm waiting in anticipation to see what your undo feature will be. Does it solve this problem:

A directory of my current files.
A backup directory with the previous version of those files.
I copy from the current directory to the backup on a regular basis (overwriting files).
I do it the wrong way and overwrite my current files with the previous files.

Will XY's undo, undo that??

...I find it even more funny that they are satisfied with a visual check, as if the pixels they are looking at would not have been generated by that same computer. BTW, I'm not pointing at others here -- I have no problem to admit to such irrational behavior myself. It's still funny.

That brings up a very pertinent point. I've been involved in helping check a duplicate file finder where, under certain circumstances, the list of duplicates shown did not indicate all duplicates. The pixels on the screen did not tell the truth!

[admin]

I like to see where my files are going to go if I'm moving or copying them.

Would you agree that for most DP addicts this is the core need, the main impulse behind all the crying for DP?

It's certainly a fundamental issue for me, but then that security can be achieved in XY. Copy (or move), switch to other tab, paste and you see they are there; but it takes four keystrokes (including returning to the original tab) whereas in DP it takes one (two if you have a confirmation dialogue).
It's also possible in some file managers, for the really paranoid, to compare byte-for-byte to check that the files are identical.

...The big download numbers are all for software that's about protection from danger. The 2nd best is protection from mistakes, aka Undo.

I'm waiting in anticipation to see what your undo feature will be. Does it solve this problem:

A directory of my current files.
A backup directory with the previous version of those files.
I copy from the current directory to the backup on a regular basis (overwriting files).
I do it the wrong way and overwrite my current files with the previous files.

Will XY's undo, undo that??

...I find it even more funny that they are satisfied with a visual check, as if the pixels they are looking at would not have been generated by that same computer. BTW, I'm not pointing at others here -- I have no problem to admit to such irrational behavior myself. It's still funny.

That brings up a very pertinent point. I've been involved in helping check a duplicate file finder where, under certain circumstances, the list of duplicates shown did not indicate all duplicates. The pixels on the screen did not tell the truth!

Check the target with less than 4 keystrokes: menu Go | Go To Last Target (Ctrl+Alt+F7)

Will XY's undo, undo that?? No, I don't plan to take snapshots of earlier stages of data. But if this mistake happens to you regularly, it might be time for a new cool revolutionary sales-raising security feature in XY: a configurable list of forbidden file operations!