XYplorer Beta Club

Wow, can it be that Win7 Explorer does not support Manual Sorting (dragging items to a new position) anymore? At least I cannot seem to find a way to do it.

admin wrote:Wow, can it be that Win7 Explorer does not support Manual Sorting (dragging items to a new position) anymore? At least I cannot seem to find a way to do it.

A quick Google search turned up an apparent confirmation and a possible workaround (in German ).

nas8e9 wrote:

admin wrote:Wow, can it be that Win7 Explorer does not support Manual Sorting (dragging items to a new position) anymore? At least I cannot seem to find a way to do it.

A quick Google search turned up an apparent confirmation and a possible workaround (in German ).

Wow, what a hack! And the side-effects (http://www.unawave.de/windows-7-tipps/f ... fekte.html) point to the fact that MS did not spend too much energy on this option. Looks more like old XP code that they did not have the time to completely erase.

Interesting (= mysterious) move by MS, because I have the impression there is quite a demand for this (especially among photographers). Well, good for me... ... soon XY will have a light table mode with permanent free sort order...

admin wrote:soon XY will have a light table mode with permanent free sort order...

Thats great news -- AGAIN!

PLEASE, while you're already at it, make free/manual sort order also (optionally) permanent in Details View (e.g. add an optional column named "custom sort" or similar). THIS will be a KILLER for paperless document management, where what you need is to be able to add new files at the top (or bottom) in a folder (as they are introduced into the project/case/customer file), and then STAY THERE (and flow down successively as new files keep streaming in) EVEN IF FILES GET CHANGED later (i.e. edited).

This of course is what any trivial paper folder has been doing reliably for centuries -- yet there is still not one single file manager on the planet that simply can mimick a paper folder!

Thus, FlexyFiles will be THE VERY FIRST (...again)!

See also the related thread with even more votes for a persistent manual sort order.

Keep up the great, amazing work,

Cheers David.P

David.P wrote:

admin wrote:soon XY will have a light table mode with permanent free sort order...

Thats great news -- AGAIN!

PLEASE, while you're already at it, make free/manual sort order also (optionally) permanent in Details View (e.g. add an optional column named "custom sort" or similar). THIS will be a KILLER for paperless document management, where what you need is to be able to add new files at the top (or bottom) in a folder (as they are introduced into the project/case/customer file), and then STAY THERE (and flow down successively as new files keep streaming in) EVEN IF FILES GET CHANGED later (i.e. edited).

This of course is what any trivial paper folder has been doing reliably for centuries -- yet there is still not one single file manager on the planet that simply can mimick a paper folder!

Thus, FlexyFiles will be THE VERY FIRST (...again)!

See also the related thread with even more votes for a persistent manual sort order.

Keep up the great, amazing work,

Cheers David.P

Yup, is planned! The sort order will be stored independently of the View mode anyway.

I don't understand this part:
>>(e.g. add an optional column named "custom sort" or similar)
Why a column? ........ Aah, got it: For switching between manual and other sort orders... This column would contain the indices (positions) in the manual sort order, right? Not a bad idea...

admin wrote: Yup, is planned! The sort order will be stored independently of the View mode anyway.

Terrific!

admin wrote: >>(e.g. add an optional column named "custom sort" or similar)
Why a column? ........ Aah, got it: For switching between manual and other sort orders... This column would contain the indices (positions) in the manual sort order, right?

Exactly!

Thanks again --
Cheers David.P

Wow, time is running. Anyway, Permanent Custom Sort Order (PCS) is still on my list and yesterday I solved 90% of the technical problems. It's on my list for 11.40.

admin wrote:Wow, time is running. Anyway, Permanent Custom Sort Order (PCS) is still on my list and yesterday I solved 90% of the technical problems. It's on my list for 11.40.

OK, put otherwise: Those who really need and miss that feature, how's your vision for this feature?

admin wrote:OK, put otherwise: Those who really need and miss that feature, how's your vision for this feature?

Well, I really have a hard time to conceive a situation where I could need it (because I've always tried to sort my analog folders strictly either by time or by aphabet or a combination of both - but failed miserably, ended up as a FIFO-stack most of the time ).

On the other hand, a "sticky sort" could nevertheless come in handy some day. I really don't know wether there's a need for multiple "named sticky sorts" per folder, but I would expect to be able to turn a given actual "non sticky" sorted list (:= any natural XY sort order at any time) into a "sticky" one for further tweaking with a single click or shortcut.

Hope that helps.


Cheers,
Filehero

admin wrote:OK, put otherwise: Those who really need and miss that feature, how's your vision for this feature?

i can't say i really need it, but i used to use it in past times(stopped 'cause few apps, except Win itself, have it). i see it as simply any items dragged to some position moves there. the problem here is in depicting difference among move between item and into items.

"solved 90% of the technical problems"

Good to hear.

FastStone Image Viewer's implementation is pretty good to use as a model.

Move an item to new position and you automatically enter "Custom" sort mode. A text file is created in the folder with the list of items and their custom sort order. Items added to the folder afterwards are added to the end of the list. You can switch between "custom" and regular (criteria based) sort as well as "Delete custom sort" at any time.

How it could be done in XYplorer:
The tricky bit will be avoiding a clash with the Mouse-Down-Blow-Up feature.
User will probably have to switch to Manual Sort mode (automatically switching MDBU off).
It would be better if the manual sort order is automatically saved after entering this mode rather than requiring the user to explicitly save it.
Use the term "Manual Sort" and leave "Custom Sort" for possible future custom (but still criteria based) sorting.
The sort list is maintained in a central .dat file not in separate text files in the actual folders (as is the XY way).

One way could be to assign tags (using the existing tag feature) to each file in a manually sorted folder in a special Manual-Sort tag field.

The same logic could be used to sort by specific tags (e.g. rating) or even save sort order numbers as a different kind of tag (i.e. the ability to create and save multiple sort orders).
********************

But if you want to take it to the next level (you did ask for "vision").

A Freeform (or Desktop) mode:
The ability (probably as a function of Folder Views), in thumbnail mode, to move items freely anywhere on the grid (i.e. the way the Windows desktop behaves).

The sort order is saved as a list of file-names with extensions before but now with something like "Space" and "CLR" "characters" in amongst them. Or "grid references" against each file.

You get multiple Portable Desktops. Any folder can be used as a Desktop.

Custom background images for folders:

There are many other reasons why these would be beneficial in combination with a "desktop mode" other than aesthetics or to emulate a "desktop".

It's best if I give some examples:

You're a building manager. Create a folder with a floor-plan of your building as a background image. Then place files relevant to each room or area on the corresponding part of the floor-plan image.

You're organizing a charity event. Place files with a list of the guests at each table over the corresponding table on the table layout.

You're President of the United States. Create a folder with with a background image of the U.S. Government organization. Move the image thumbnails of you're team members to the departments of your choice. Make Bob Secretary of Defense and move Alice to Homeland Security.

Take a snapshot of your handiwork (with XYplorer's built-in captor).

Climb down from the trees onto the cartesian plain. Floor-plans, maps, charts, calendars: the list of possibilities for functional background images is endless. XYplorer: visually manage your information (better than any mind-map app).

And as this is all about files and cartesian X and Y coordinates it explains why XYplorer is so named.

FeatureCreep wrote:Climb down from the trees onto the cartesian plain. ... it explains why XYplorer is so named.

Wow, inspiring vision!

I'll go back into meditation mode. This needs deeper thinking...

I've been meditating about this one for a while. I just thought that, even if it doesn't happen soon, you might code Persistent Manual Sort in a way that makes it easier to implement in the future.

The need it fulfils:
1. A better desktop
Multiple desktop apps are all about different workspaces for app windows. None of them really address the need for separate workspaces for different collections of files (e.g. home, work, project X).

Desktop Folders would free the "real" desktop of clutter and be much more flexible.

2. A better mind mapper
I remember reading about a Microsoft dev. team holding a progress meeting and despite all their software tools they used a big old-fashioned (paper and pin) notice board to organize their project. Their is a need for software with the functionality of a notice or white board. I've looked at mind map apps but they're all too fussy. Desktop Folders would not have the same learning curve. Everybody is familiar with how the Windows desktop works. You use your existing files. No need to cut and paste info into some mind-map diagram entity.

It is worth doing even without background images. You could even use scripts to generate layouts based on file meta or other data. Histograms of files or the contents of a branch arranged with each subfolder on the left (indented by one grid space for each level of nesting) and all the contained files on one row per subfolder.

However, if you marketed them as "Portable Desktops" then people would expect the ability to display backgrounds. The use of functional backgrounds is, I think, a killer feature but it is really a function of how people use them rather than actual code. You would need to show potential users several examples of how they can be used.

Other uses:
1. Flexible shortcut launcher
Replace all those launch menus with XYplorer tabs offering more layout options than most of them.

2. Unlimited custom toolbars
Use the second pane as a giant 2D (as opposed to linear) toolbar with shortcuts that activate XYplorer commands or scripts. You can use big (32x32) icons or larger (using image thumbnails and folder-specific PFAs). Have separate tabs (i.e. folders) for different tasks with different sets of commands. Or display the whole command set in one view. [The only catches: requires double-click and you would want the action to be carried out on selected items in the other pane]

Some thoughts on implementation:
Backgrounds images can larger than the actual desktop resolution and viewed through scrolling.

Each desktop folder has a specified width and grid spacing. That is, there is a default desktop width which can be changed by the user per folder (by explicitly specifying or by choosing a background image, in which case the width of the image sets the width of the portable desktop).

The height of the desktop is unlimited (i.e. can "grow" beyond the height of any background as new items are added by any means other than the user dragging them there). New items added to a desktop folder appear at the bottom, and the height grows to suit. A background colour is used at this extendible bottom area. This would be more predictable and better than the way items are added to the Windows destop.

Cake icing:
1. Custom Icons
The ability to assign custom icons to different file-types (within XYplorer, not elsewhere on the system) would be the last major portability issue addressed. Being able to assign custom icons to specific items would be even better. To use the example of the "human resources" organization chart. You have thumbnails displaying portraits of your team which you move around your chart but the actual files are PDFs containing each person's resume.

2. Full Screen Mode
To get the full desktop experience, a full screen mode for folders would be cool. This need not be confined to thumbnail views. Auto-hiding screen-edge menu and toolbars (top), tree (left) and info panel (bottom) would be awesome.

FeatureCreep wrote:I've been meditating about this one for a while. I just thought that, even if it doesn't happen soon, you might code Persistent Manual Sort in a way that makes it easier to implement in the future. ...

Totally mind-(map)-blowing! I wonder if it is just a great idea or if even useful for a sufficient number of people. I learned in recent years that new revolutionary things are much harder to sell than the boring old conventional stuff...

For what it's worth: I use ACDSee regularly, which has a good implementation of custom sorting. I don't use it often, but when I do I greatly appreciate it. I never use it to maintain a persistent custom sort between visits to a folder. I have only used it to 1) temporarily place image thumbs together for ease of selecting or cycling through in the viewer or 2) easily specify a custom order for batch renaming using sequential numbers. I like about ACDSee that custom sort isn't some special mode and is activated merely by dragging a file and that "custom" appears on the "sort by" list as just another option. Something I would improve is to make it more obvious somehow that custom sort is active--change in bg color, note in title bar, highlight files that are out of the default order--don't know what would work best.

Not sure what I think about desktop mode/mindmapping for individual folders. I suppose it could end up being awesome but I suspect I wouldn't use it and I don't think it's where I'd put my vote for development energy.

I'm curious how this persistent sort order will be saved. I would prefer not hidden files in each (sub)folder. Also, how will this interact with portability? I don't routinely use XY to manage other machines but I wouldn't want either of 1) leaving a trail of mystery hidden files on other people's computers or 2) storing info about computers I'm never going back to in a central db.