XYplorer Beta Club

I am gradually moving from Xplorer2 to XYplorer. I recall it is on schedule for the version 8 but a dual pane would be really appreciated.

Not the project pane I have seen somewhere on the forum (4 panes - tree/folder, or 2 panes - folders) but the traditional 3 panes (as does Xplorer2, Directory Opus 9, etc.)

The future of XYplorer will be more the quality of it's advanced features and functions than it's originality.

XYplorer is new to me 7.90. I am reading the documentation now. I do believe I will switch when the dual pane will be available.

What's your (main) use for Dual Pane? (I'm still trying to understand the attraction...)

admin wrote:What's your (main) use for Dual Pane? (I'm still trying to understand the attraction...)

Visually compare folders (ease of use). There is no question, if 99% offer the same function there is always a good reason do follow the trend.

It goes by steps:
One tree + one windows (basic)
One tree + one windows and multi-tabs (improvement)
One tree + two windows and multi-tabs (better)

I bet the XY users would increase only because of this. The soft is well done in my point of view. I vouched for Explorer (as probably many) vs XY at first, but the lack of polish of the former pushes me back to XY. However the pane feature is a big issue.

A simple use among others: my document folders hold the same names as my favorites folders. I could probably copy the folders in my documents window and past them in the favorite windows (folders without the content) but I find it much simple to do it manually and visually among 2 panes (e.g. my document L pane/my favorites R panes) without interfering with main folder tree pane.

I understand the developer (are you?) made the decision not to implement this feature for whatever reason (personal, coding?) I would rather suggest to make this option available and let the users decide using it or not according to their liking and needs

admsupport wrote:

admin wrote:What's your (main) use for Dual Pane? (I'm still trying to understand the attraction...)

Visually compare folders (ease of use). There is no question, if 99% offer the same function there is always a good reason do follow the trend. ...

Thanks for the answer.

One more question: If Dual Pane is so important, why are you here? I mean, you are right, XYplorer is AFAIK the only of the big alternative file managers without Dual Pane. So, what brought you here to the dark world of single pane (or correctly: single file list)?

admin wrote:what brought you here to the dark world of single pane

Please bear with me and don't be offended by remarks (if not for my bad English and the typos). This is going to be a long post with technical topics from a non-technical point of view (simply because I don't code, I only know some vba basics). It will also be personal (this much!) because the spirit of a coder appears in his work (it is like craftsmanship).

I spend long hours in front of a PC and Windows Explorer is not practical to visualize sub-folders' content of root folders, as for anything else than basic folders/files management. I listed 3 top software Xplorer2, Directory Opus 9 and XYplorer. X2 and XY would reflect the personality of their developer, while DO9 would be more like corporate work. DO9 appeared immediately as a strong file management replacement multi-media oriented. It is a bit heavy. I will give it a longer try later one, but let's focus on the two others:

Xplorer2's easily accessible functions are blasting:
I will put that in the wish list of XY
- Browse Flat / Scrap folder (what you call virtual folder) I don't need to open 10x sub-folders to see what's inside. I can save the virtual folders for re-use if needed.
- Dual Pane (as previously said I can look right-left-up-down, I see everything)
- Lightning fast preview of PDF, JPG, XPS, WMP, DOC, XLS, etc. in a small preview windows (of the size of the XY catalog) in draft or normal preview. Well XY does it too but it is less intuitive (need to select RAW view and extract text in binary mode to see a DOC file, then click again when it is a JPG file)
- Simple and intuitive menus (no clutter, simple choices)
- Past/copy to folders, past/copy to the other pane, past folders structure, past/copy queuing, etc.
- Folder views with Groups or Custom groups (a must have in the default view menu)
- All the special folders are accessible from the GUI (no need to open the Trash or the Control Panel of Windows Explorer)
- Fully effective BREADCRUMBS for instant and direct access to ANY folders on a right click (it shows all the sub-folders)
- written in CC+ with WTL

What's the catch then?

- The GUI is ugly and cheap (It does matter to me) and that is not going to change anytime soon.
- It uses the same API as Windows Explorer, so when you have a folder open in the right and you want to delete it in the folder pane, it is locked (I hate that!)
- But, more than anything, the GUI and the ICONS are ugly

XY now:

- It is written in BV (not sure if that's really relevant?)
- It has way too many menu options "copy here..., copy here..., copy here..., copy here..." by example, or 6 sub-menus to copy to clipboard?! on the file menu (copy belongs to the edit menu usually)
- It lacks the related features above
- It looks modules like, not really homogeneous

BUT
- it is elegant
- the GUI is fresh
- is is portable
- it has many powerful features as well (search, etc.)
- the developer seems to constantly improving his software
- the blog, the web site translate a taste for refinement and perfectionism

(I do not mention the advanced features, scripting, regex, etc. because if they may be the core of XY or X2, there are a bit advanced for average users, and they do not answer my use to simply manage a fairly big amount of new data I accumulate everyday - but yes for that matter XY rocks).

Conceptually, XY seems very strong at organizing one's folders with colors, tabs groups and much details (I do fold my tee-shits in rectangle and store them by colour match , but what a loose of time). So is this really a target for an average user? It may be variable, but i would put in priority the need to VISUALIZE the content of sub-folders quickly, to group the junk inside easily, to move/copy/past/search and preview files quickly (that is the daily job, the repeated job). For that matter, X2 reaches his commercial target of USABILITY. It does the job, like a Cherokee Jeep maybe, but it does it. XY seems still way to conceptual in that matter.

Let me digress a little: It brings me back to one of my reading about about German production before Albert Speer, when it needed 72 bolts of different sizes and shapes to assemble a Junker Stuka Driver Bomber. Speer increased the productivity partly in simplifying unnecessary complicated processes. That's somehow my feeling about XYplorer. A nice application, indeed brilliant, but not enough powerful in term of simplicity and usability (Too many modules make XY look like a kind of MS VBA editor with a long listing of macros). I have a complain toward the X2 GUI and the wrapper of the Windows API (it is on the X2 forum) but it seems of a lesser importance to the users, and a "no way" topic for the developer anyway. Sure enough you don't need too improve a winning formula.

That could be the way for a soft like XY: the potential to bring users a similar functionality with a better look. It could be a win-win solution. That' why I am here. It is more about the XY potentiality than its actual advance features. I have heard about a dual pane for the v8.0.0, and virtual folders, if we add some work about the menu functions and location, group view, etc. it would be render XY pretty solid among any type of users.

admsupport wrote:

admin wrote:what brought you here to the dark world of single pane

Please bear with me and don't be offended by remarks (if not for my bad English and the typos). This is going to be a long post with technical topics from a non-technical point of view (simply because I don't code, I only know some vba basics). It will also be personal (this much!) because the spirit of a coder appears in his work (it is like craftsmanship). ...

Thanks a lot! Very interesting post. I will take some time to digest it. I generally think you have a very good point in that it's time for some simplification. The app has grown into too many directions, got fuzzy, lost its clear shape. I have to think about what one can do. Maybe even split the product into a simple/lite version and and a heavy version...?

You say: "It looks modules like, not really homogeneous."
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?

thanks,
Don

admin wrote: You say: "It looks modules like, not really homogeneous."
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?

Hi Don,

Thanks for the feed back. Yes, that was a long post.

Can you give some example?

Not easy, I try with some example: XY feels a bit like the VBA windows, on the left you have all the modules (macros) and it is not very intuitive without a good knowledge. I have this feeling with XY. There are a plethora of functions through the menus, but they are not well ordered and suffer redundancy (e.g. Edit menu > Selected by Selected Type is useless, since there is the Select filter just above. Besides, you can click the extension in the folder for about the same result which moreover must be a rare criteria of selection. That is just an example among others). Besides, many function are organized a bit randomly (using the "File" menu for file editing functions vs. the "Edit" menu is another example) or needs additional clicks ("view" menu, no multi selection allow in "Tree Style", "List Style" one click on one option and the window closes). X2 is more logical and structured in that mater (maybe his design his different, it use a wrapper, but that is not only because of this). About the lack of homogeneity: XY calls several Special System Folders, while X2 understands them (they show up in the GUI), also XY is very strong to search files but lacks the basic function of a flat folder function, among other things.

I don't see the utility of 2 apps (light/pro) but for marketing purpose. I would rather have a strange suggestion, but the best in my way: To upload the free trial of Xplorer2 Professional (21 days trial) or to purchase a license for a longer comparative study, and to use all its functions in depth, until to perfectly grasp the spirit of his developer (i.e. to use the soft not only as a programmer, but as simple user for basic tasks until to get used to it). The merging of two concepts and different philosophy could be a very good insight about the orientation/modifications to bring to XY. It is not for copying purpose, but to broaden one's perception.

About every company have a department (I don't know the name in English) where they compare the products of their competitors. I think it is a beneficial process. The risk for a developer or a reduced team is to share a single vision and to lake the ability to step back to try different approaches. Yes, a forum is nice, but it often one way communication for support, or for blind followers to show their amazement (because they love the app and the developer through it), until to move someplace else.

I get to like XY, since the beginning it is a growing feeling, but I still have this feel of an incomplete application with some very strong features. I don't know how many people people are behind you. But if you are alone, I believe there is much work to do. It might be not be easy? Anyway, I don't come with negative comments per-se, and I am glad you take my remarks in the good way. You can agree or not about a point or another, but that's different. So thank you for reading.

admsupport wrote:... The merging of two concepts and different philosophy could be a very good insight about the orientation/modifications to bring to XY. It is not for copying purpose, but to broaden one's perception...

I couldn't disagree more on almost everything admsupport wrote here.

Every single menu and context menu item (you are right that most other file managers have less, but that's just because they lack some of these functions) makes sense, because - believe it or not - there are users who want to access them by mouse and not keyboard. Your expamples of redundancy are not understandable for me and most of your critisism is true for almost every application (there are some standards, yes, but who determines whether a menu item belongs to menu A or B?).

Simplification sounds always good, but all of these features are there because people need them to get their work done (you can always improve it, right, but if you want to include the functionality the degree of simplification is limited). Someone who is looking for simplification isn't looking for an alternative file manager, he just stays with Windows Explorer.

You seem to be used to how Xplorer² works and want to become XYplorer an improved Xplorer² clone.

Most of the things you don't like about XYplorer are just the things which make it special and stand out from its competitors.

I just hope Don won't destroy this XYfeeling (I'm hopeful that he is able to integrate DualPane without sacrificing too much of XY's "character" but too much streamlining would surely be a bad thing).

I have some sympathy regarding the quantity of menu and sub menu options - lets face it we probably only use a very small number of the options available, but on occasion it is great to dig a little deeper to find XY has just what you need. So, presentation simplification maybe an answer.

Feature simplification - the introduction of DP does nothing to help in this regard - XY was plain and simply a tab based solution but admittedly failed to suit certain requirements where DP had a clear advantage. I have always believed that XY should remain predominately tab based and attempt to provide a DP type solution for these special circumstances - like manual comparison, by some other means. I do feel that a total integration of DP operations with tab based operations is introducing a lot of complexity. It's only advantage could be attracting the users who have used DP and find change difficult, which it is. MS have introduced the banner type of menu which I hated at first but after spending time going through the well presented tutorials, I am now quite a fan - maybe this approach could be an option for XY menu presentation?

herakles wrote:Every single menu and context menu item (you are right that most other file managers have less, but that's just because they lack some of these functions) makes sense, because - believe it or not - there are users who want to access them by mouse and not keyboard. Your expamples of redundancy are not understandable for me and most of your critisism is true for almost every application (there are some standards, yes, but who determines whether a menu item belongs to menu A or B?).

Exactly! I, for one, have a touchpad so I prefer to as much as possible via left-click on it and thus also use context menus only when required, so XY provides various paths for the different types of users (keyboard/mouse/toolbar/etc). Some products tend to concentrate on one user type so it makes it sometimes more difficult for use by people like me.

Thus, having the various options avail via sub-menu is vital to mouse type users...While I can't think of any obvious redundant functions right now, in some cases options may appear in two places to make usability easier...and...I may have icons on my toolbar that you don't and vice-versa so providing menu access to these functions is also required.

Also, while you may be really familar with x2 fuctions and their menu system, XY is a different product so it takes a while to get familar with it...I suggest you spend a bit more time getting to know your way around XY (and time here in the forums) and you may then have a better view of things...FYI: new users who show up here and shortly thereafter begin to criticize XY as compared to their current/other product may not be the best welcomed, though we try to be friendly! I'm know the same attitude exists on some other forums...in other words, slow down, get aquainted, look back and then begin to see which methodology is better.

admsupport wrote:

admin wrote: You say: "It looks modules like, not really homogeneous."
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you give an example?

Hi Don,

Thanks for the feed back. Yes, that was a long post.

Can you give some example?

Not easy, I try with some example: XY feels a bit like the VBA windows, on the left you have all the modules (macros) and it is not very intuitive without a good knowledge. I have this feeling with XY. There are a plethora of functions through the menus, but they are not well ordered and suffer redundancy (e.g. Edit menu > Selected by Selected Type is useless, since there is the Select filter just above. Besides, you can click the extension in the folder for about the same result which moreover must be a rare criteria of selection. That is just an example among others). Besides, many function are organized a bit randomly (using the "File" menu for file editing functions vs. the "Edit" menu is another example) or needs additional clicks ("view" menu, no multi selection allow in "Tree Style", "List Style" one click on one option and the window closes). X2 is more logical and structured in that mater (maybe his design his different, it use a wrapper, but that is not only because of this). About the lack of homogeneity: XY calls several Special System Folders, while X2 understands them (they show up in the GUI), also XY is very strong to search files but lacks the basic function of a flat folder function, among other things.

I don't see the utility of 2 apps (light/pro) but for marketing purpose. I would rather have a strange suggestion, but the best in my way: To upload the free trial of Xplorer2 Professional (21 days trial) or to purchase a license for a longer comparative study, and to use all its functions in depth, until to perfectly grasp the spirit of his developer (i.e. to use the soft not only as a programmer, but as simple user for basic tasks until to get used to it). The merging of two concepts and different philosophy could be a very good insight about the orientation/modifications to bring to XY. It is not for copying purpose, but to broaden one's perception.

About every company have a department (I don't know the name in English) where they compare the products of their competitors. I think it is a beneficial process. The risk for a developer or a reduced team is to share a single vision and to lake the ability to step back to try different approaches. Yes, a forum is nice, but it often one way communication for support, or for blind followers to show their amazement (because they love the app and the developer through it), until to move someplace else.

I get to like XY, since the beginning it is a growing feeling, but I still have this feel of an incomplete application with some very strong features. I don't know how many people people are behind you. But if you are alone, I believe there is much work to do. It might be not be easy? Anyway, I don't come with negative comments per-se, and I am glad you take my remarks in the good way. You can agree or not about a point or another, but that's different. So thank you for reading.

Okay, others have answered before and said pretty much what I would have said. So my answer is short: Rather than having me try out X2 "in depth", I suggest you try out XY "in depth". Hey, you get even *30* days free trial over here.

Sorry, but I still did not understand your "It looks modules like, not really homogeneous." Actually I think "modules like" and "homogeneous" are no contradictions, and to me (distorted perception, of course) XY is very homogeneous, and I have put a lot of work in making it that homogeneous.

herakles wrote:Simplification sounds always good, but all of these features are there because people need them to get their work done (you can always improve it, right, but if you want to include the functionality the degree of simplification is limited). Someone who is looking for simplification isn't looking for an alternative file manager, he just stays with Windows Explorer.

The art is probably to make appear simple. Easily said...

herakles wrote:I just hope Don won't destroy this XYfeeling (I'm hopeful that he is able to integrate DualPane without sacrificing too much of XY's "character" but too much streamlining would surely be a bad thing).

Oh yeah, I hope so too! You just have to trust my incapability to do really bad things to XY... I'm certainly an endorphin-driven developer: If it does not feel good I won't do it.

graham wrote:MS have introduced the banner type of menu which I hated at first but after spending time going through the well presented tutorials, I am now quite a fan - maybe this approach could be an option for XY menu presentation?

Not sure what you mean (I hardly use newer MS software). Are you talking about the "ribbon"?

admin wrote:

herakles wrote:I just hope Don won't destroy this XYfeeling (I'm hopeful that he is able to integrate DualPane without sacrificing too much of XY's "character" but too much streamlining would surely be a bad thing).

Oh yeah, I hope so too! You just have to trust my incapability to do really bad things to XY... I'm certainly an endorphin-driven developer: If it does not feel good I won't do it.

Yes, that's the attitude which makes XYplorer so special. I'm sure you will be able to integrate it in a way which isn't just a poor imitation but a usefull addition to the present feature set (unobtrusive for those who want to manage files the traditional XYstlye but an alternative for the DP folks).

I know the Reviews section would be a better place for this but praise is never out of place ;-) :
I just love XY! It's the first application I start on my PC and it usually stays open until I turn my computer off. It's stable, very fast, has a small footprint and does everything I need (although I have to confess that my mouth is watering if I see what great features are on your roadmap). It was the best buying decision I every made concerning software and I guess it's the main reason why I didn't already switch to linux. Thanks, Don for a great product, jacky for the wonderful wiki, jc and all the others for a great forum.

herakles wrote:I know the Reviews section would be a better place for this but praise is never out of place ;-) :
I just love XY! It's the first application I start on my PC and it usually stays open until I turn my computer off. It's stable, very fast, has a small footprint and does everything I need (although I have to confess that my mouth is watering if I see what great features are on your roadmap). It was the best buying decision I every made concerning software and I guess it's the main reason why I didn't already switch to linux. Thanks, Don for a great product, jacky for the wonderful wiki, jc and all the others for a great forum.

Thanks a lot!

Actually the review section of a big download site would be an even better place for it... ... unfortunately CNET has considerable problems in maintaining their standards since many weeks now, so I cannot recommend it anymore. Actually when I think about it, I cannot recommend any software site. Something is changing here. A shareware crisis on top of the financial crisis? Is there no mercy? Or can any of you recommend a big popular site with a serious approach to software in a troll-safe environment?