XYplorer Beta Club

serendipity quote:

Code:

user only
###
You can search XYWiki right from here:
<form action="http://88.191.26.34/XYwiki/index.php/Special:Search" id="searchform" TARGET="resource window">
<div>
<input id="searchInput" name="search" type="text" accesskey="f" value="" />
<input type='submit' name="go" class="searchButton" id="searchGoButton" value="Go" />

</div>
</form>

Wink Cool
I am sure one can implement the same if TIPS page is around. Just an idea. Idea

This shows how useful it is for tips to passed around. The example above immediately struck me that this facility (code method) should be in the XY Help list (Search XYWiki) as it is such a quick and easy way to get straight in.

It is true that most new users hate these tips and turn them off BUT, after using XY for some weeks one then starts to want to dig deeper and the tips do provide a useful quick start to doing this. I do think that there is no real advantage to developing this much further as it soon out lives it's purpose once the tips have been read.

j_c_hallgren wrote:and there are tips that I may find useful for areas of XY that jacky knows better than me, and another user may find my tip similarly useful...

graham wrote:This shows how useful it is for tips to passed around.

serendipity wrote:But then, even though I have been around since 2 yrs now, i keep forgeting some tips in XY. For us users it would be good to have something like "TIPS Repository" on XYwiki (like JC suggested)? We users have to think about providing the newbies with the best tips possible.

Those all just say to me that what is really needed is a good default file or central repository. It doesn't make sense to have all these custom user tip files. They'll overlap and become even harder to maintain. A page on the wiki that contains or links to the tips makes more sense and there's no need to spend time programming a search for it; the wiki's current search, Google, and the browser's search should be plenty.

If we're providing the best tips possible they need to be in the default not in some custom file that a new user is going to have to add in later. What's the point in telling a newbie to download multiple custom tip files instead of pointing them to a more accessible page in the wiki?

To further that point it would make more sense to store the tips in XML. Then some XSL can be used to display it nicely on the web and the same file can be downloaded for use by XY, so changes only have to be made in one place.

It's more useful if the default file is good than if you have the ability to add custom ones. I really don't see users wanting to spend the time updating these custom tip files, let alone finding and downloading them in the first place.

graham wrote:I do think that there is no real advantage to developing this much further as it soon out lives it's purpose once the tips have been read.

j_c_hallgren wrote:I also envision using the custom tips as way of keeping track of things that I use only on occasion, and may thus not recall where/how the next time...and yes, it may be on wiki/forum, but if I can have a short tip/pointer locally, then all the better, as I'd not need a net connection to access it...

That was my earlier point about making them easy to edit within XY and making it more of a note keeper/on start reminder. If I have to open it in my own editor I'm more likely to just store these tips in my own text file where I can quickly view them all, completely ignore the format, and easily search them. If I can edit them in XY why not go the extra step and make it an easy way to jot down notes whether or not they are related to XY.

I think, Don should be left to program which is what he does best and tips should be left to users. By the way, Don is so busy programming that he doesnt get to use his program as much as we do.
OK, so we have this tipaday thing now which in my opinion is good for newbies. Newbies as I understood will be provided with official tipaday which I guess Don will choose from the several tips and include in them.
We users can compile a Tips repository somewhere on web which ofcourse will be searchable and help ourselves quickly find easy way to get around managing files. I should stress that all the tips are already present in the wiki and all one needs to do is put them in one place. Which means there is a strong need to categorize them.

graham wrote:It is true that most new users hate these tips and turn them off BUT, after using XY for some weeks one then starts to want to dig deeper and the tips do provide a useful quick start to doing this. I do think that there is no real advantage to developing this much further as it soon out lives it's purpose once the tips have been read.

Yes, that sums it up nicely.

Lots of words have been spilled about this new tips feature (hey TheQwerty, what's the name of that new flow drug? ). Wait a minute: its foremost raison d'etre is to give newbies some ideas about what is there to be discovered. Don't forget: it's random! You cannot use this as a structured documentation (unless you are crazy enough...).
Now, the so-called "user tip file" is maybe misleadingly named, don't know. It's just a spin-off -- because it was so easy to program, and the possibilites with using HTML are so nice and rich. I don't care what you do with it. My own first idea was: it could be used to provide tips in other languages and thus open up the app to foreign language speakers. Again, it won't be me who writes translations of the tips. But maybe somebody does. The interface is there to be used.

Thanks for posting tips here! (or in the wiki?) I will steal them at will and incorporate them into the "official tip file". Soon there will come the point when I lose overview and need a structured way to find out whether a tip is already there... OTOH: not much harm will be generated if there are some doublettes -- hey, it's just tips!

admin wrote:hey TheQwerty, what's the name of that new flow drug?

Werkavoyd

I really think you should consider making use of the menu bar as I suggested. XYplorer could be the first app to have a decent tipping feature instead of being another app with another annoying dialog.

The Tips do certainly help - as a newbie I read them and have learned things I didn't know - it is up to the user to read or not read them. Yes the tips are contained in the Wiki but reading a manual is boring and a link from a tip helps a great deal to read a detailed explanation. Searching on keywords or similar does not always work that well and again as a newbie I have tried that and because of my lack of experience with XY sometimes one does not always search in the best way, leading to frustration. I am not wishing to imply the Wiki is not good, it is brilliant, but without direct links to specific user anticipated needs then finding specific answers can be time consuming. It serves a different purpose from tips but can coexist with them to add great value.

The tips serve a totally different purpose and are there to be read casually and not used to search or learn specific answers to enquiries. If the numbers of tips got large then searching through would also become boring and not that helpful.

I do agree with the concept of a central store for the 'official' tips and this be provided by Don as this ensures easy updating and management. May I suggest that tips for inclusion are sent to him by those who use some of the 'not that obvious' techniques so that he can decide if they are suitable.

The ability to modify or add tips by the user is there to be exploited by the user. Personally, I would, and do make a text file to lean on when my memory fails. Someone mentioned about foreign language conversion and this may be a good reason to keep the user option open.

The reason why I do not think too much effort should be expended in developing tips over and above what we have (process not tips) is that it diverts valuable and limited time from other development features which can add even more value to XY. If ever, Don were to have a quiet time then these existing things can be further exploited or polished, but I suspect the chances of that happening are zero - which is great as I suspect there are still many innovative and exciting things to come.

graham wrote:I do agree with the concept of a central store for the 'official' tips and this be provided by Don as this ensures easy updating and management. May I suggest that tips for inclusion are sent to him by those who use some of the 'not that obvious' techniques so that he can decide if they are suitable.

That's why I suggested a special section/page on wiki to be used as 'central store', as we thus can easily add new ones or make improvements to existing...users could download it (or parts thereof) as desired...and Don can then review and extract tips from there to be added to the default.

graham wrote:The ability to modify or add tips by the user is there to be exploited by the user. Personally, I would, and do make a text file to lean on when my memory fails. Someone mentioned about foreign language conversion and this may be a good reason to keep the user option open.

The use of a text file may be ok for some, but I wouldn't mind having (directly in XY) a reminder of some of those things that I keep learning/forgetting over and over again..and the ability to bring up a random tip, or next in series can thus maybe help me to get it stuck in my older mind! And the ability to add my own personal 'issues' to this makes it, I believe, another unique feature of XY.

Yes, there has been a LOT of words about this topic! But I think we've made a fair amount of progress and while we may not all fully agree on everything except one thing: We need to help Don out so he can spend more time on what we can't do...Coding!

TheQwerty wrote:The pop up looks good but I have two (relatively small) complaints:

1) It shouldn't be modal. New users will better learn the tips if they can try them while reading them.

2) There needs to be more of a difference between the background and h1 font colors. As it is now I can barely make out the "Did you know..." header.

Agreed and done.

Thanks for adding some of my tips to the official tipoftheday.html.

I dont know if this is good or bad, but I just made this:

http://88.191.26.34/XYwiki/index.php/Tips_and_tricks

Suggestions pleaase.

serendipity quote:

I dont know if this is good or bad, but I just made this:

http://88.191.26.34/XYwiki/index.php/Tips_and_tricks

Suggestions please. Smile

I have come to quite like all these tips and try them out. Modal certainly helps, so the ability to add some more is good to have once you start seeing all the XY hidden gems. I have not gone through those above but suggest any duplicates to Don's 'official' tips be removed if they exist.

serendipity wrote:I dont know if this is good or bad, but I just made this:
http://88.191.26.34/XYwiki/index.php/Tips_and_tricks
Suggestions pleaase.

That's almost exactly what I had proposed in my earlier post!
But...how easy is it to find that page? It would seem that a link to it from main page in the "Hot" group, (as it's similar to FAQ, shortcuts, and INI tricks) would be a possible help in that respect...

I concur that once a Tip gets "promoted" to Don's file, that it should be removed from 'our' file to avoid redundancy...

However, I think we might want to keep a copy of any 'term definitions' that exist in original file in a separate paragraph of this wiki page so we'll know what is available for use, as I presume they are global between the two files, right?

And maybe any new tips added to this wiki page should be inserted prior to definitions?

serendipity wrote:I dont know if this is good or bad, but I just made this:

http://88.191.26.34/XYwiki/index.php/Tips_and_tricks

Suggestions pleaase.

Nice idea

Cheers Ulrik

serendipity wrote: Thanks for adding some of my tips to the official tipoftheday.html.

I thank you!

graham wrote:I have not gone through those above but suggest any duplicates to Don's 'official' tips be removed if they exist.

This will be a hard and never-ending work. Also it will reduce the power of the wiki which is also for people to read that do not yet have the program.
I'd rather say: leave them independent, and I go there once in the while for harvesting new tips.