XYplorer Beta Club

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 07:53**

j_c_hallgren wrote:
admin wrote:Okay: Scheme, Layout, View, Profile, and let's add Template. I'd like to know everybody's vote. For me, any of these is better than the current "Settings" -- however "Settings" has one big advantage: it matches the name of the feature "Folder Specific Settings". But as I said, I'm ready to sex up the feature name...
Granted that Settings matches FSS, but it's when it's used in the menus that it doesn't seem quite as great is my opinion.

Thus, for now, here's my thoughts:
Scheme = Makes me think of the other usages of this word (scam related)
Layout = I suggested it but am open to other ideas
View = Already used for other things in XY but also matches WE and may be easiest for newbies to follow
Profile = Hummm...not sure...similar to Templates
Templates = I'd expect this to be used in conjunction with FSS to hold choices to pick from, but not as the currently active one.

So I'm thinking View or Layout with Profile or Template used to store available choices to select from.

I agree! So, View or Layout? I also would need a handy term for what I call "folder/pattern" now, i.e. the string that is used to match the saved layout to the current folder.

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 08:39**

Wow, what a feature Don!

Far more than I expected (and you know, XYusers expect much by experience).
There may be room for improvement (list management, templates, etc.) but it already works great for me.

I don't think that "Save Folder Settings" or "Save Folder Settings as Default" would be confusing, but of course I also can live with "View" or "Layout".

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 08:41**

admin wrote:I agree! So, View or Layout? I also would need a handy term for what I call "folder/pattern" now, i.e. the string that is used to match the saved layout to the current folder.

After thinking about it more, I'm leaning towards View, given that WE uses it, and serendipity pointed that out as well, but let's get some others votes also...I'll admit that WE does use the term 'settings' for this in one place but it's combined with 'view', but the most obvious and well-known name appears to be View, plus it's what WE has at top of View tab when you select if the current "Folder view" applies to others.

For "folder/pattern", that's likely what I was thinking of "Profile" for, given that it'd thus make it more unique for docs so that Templates would be for searches and Profiles for layouts...and a Profile could possibly contain a pattern as well, so the terms can be used together.

Addendum: As we've talked about before, this folder/pattern issue needs to be (IMO) handled from both directions: View to Profile -and- Profile to View. Why? Well, if you're very well organized, you could say that all folders named "*.Images" would use the "IMAGE" Profile, but then for those less organized, they'd go through their various folders and say: Yes, I'd like to use "IMAGE" Profile for this folder's view, or I'd choose the "MUSIC" or whatever, as moonwalker also mentioned in the other thread (before he bailed out

)...and some (like me?) would use a combo of both methods, since we're partially organized when it comes to folder naming.

And I'm not forgetting that you're doing a GREAT job with this so far! It's still a work-in-progress and I, for one, know that it'll take some work to get to perfection as always.

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 11:36**

j_c_hallgren wrote:Layout = I suggested it but am open to other ideas

For the record, you realize Layout is already used elsewhere in XY as well, right? (menu Window|Layout)

Given what I read, I think the best (IMO) might be to use "Folder View", since that term seems to be what's used in WE and might be known to others, but insisting on the "Folder View" as it is different than "Views", which is otherwise a Tab setting (Details, Thumb, etc) whereas Folder View is specific to a given folder (regardless of the Tab) and refers to different things, including Views.

That said, it might be better to keep "Folder Specific Settings" as the name of the feature, because that's how it is widely known I believe. Just, FSS allow one to define some Folder Views (which are Views, Sort Order, Column Visibility/Order, etc)

Back on the menus, it could mean:

- Enable Folder Specific Settings

- Save Folder View
- Edit Folder View...
- Remove Folder View

- Edit & Save New Folder View...
- Save As Default Folder View

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 14:12**

admin wrote:

I agree! So, View or Layout? I also would need a handy term for what I call "folder/pattern" now, i.e. the string that is used to match the saved layout to the current folder.

I like view and for folder/pattern suggest 'match pattern'

I don't know what you did for the latest update but it is all working great and no longer confusing -

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 14:35**

jacky wrote:Back on the menus, it could mean:

- Enable Folder Specific Settings

- Save Folder View
- Edit Folder View...
- Remove Folder View

- Edit & Save New Folder View...
- Save As Default Folder View

Hm, I like the current menu organization better. However, using "Edit Settings..." instead of "Properties..." is a good idea.

A possibility would be to move the "Save As..." functionality to the Properties/Edit dialog by having 2 buttons there:
OLD: OK | Cancel
NEW: Save | Save as Copy | Cancel
"Save" would always overwrite the current scheme.
"Save as Copy" would leave the current scheme intact and create a new one. "Save as Copy" would only be enabled if the name ("folder") has been changed because no 2 schemes with the same name are allowed to exist. Hmmm, the latter part is something I don't like very much... maybe we just forget about this idea.

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 14:52**

admin wrote:Hm, I like the current menu organization better.

Well, I guess you're entitled to your own opinion, even if you're wrong

Seriously though, I prefer my suggestion because all commands that apply to the current Folder View are together, which sounds more logical/looks better to me. As it is now, we have Save & Save As which don't relate to the same things, then Save As Default which is something else altogether, and then back to the current FV with Remove & Edit. You almost have to stop for a sec each item and wonder if the command refers to the current FV or not. At least in my suggestion you know the first group is all about the current FV, others are not.

About the Save As, I suggested "Edit & Save New Folder View..." because I find using "Save As" might be a bit confusing, as it seems to imply we're changing a name while in reality not only can we change all settings (i.e. Edit), but it's not as much a name as it is the folder/pattern where the FV should be applied, hence why using the term "Save As New FV" seemed (more) appropriate, and (to me) better than just "Save As..." or "Save As Copy".

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 14:59**

Now for the terms. Difficult!

Using "View" is tempting but XY's FSS will comprise features that are far beyond the concept "View". You will have noted that I have left a lot of space in the "Applied Settings" frame. Things like "Show Info Panel", "Show Nav Panel", Date and time styles... etc. might be added here in future.

Generally, I think one should get the involved entities clearer:

What is saved:
- folder / pattern (the "specific" from the title "FSS")
- info about matching (include subs, match case)
- info about auto-saving
- a bunch of current settings (the "folder settings" from the title "FSS")
- info about which settings to apply
All this together is one, uh, I tend to say scheme. You "save settings as/to a scheme", "edit a scheme" and "remove a scheme".

There might be a better term than "scheme" ("Profile"???), but it's certainly not View and not Layout because they don't fit here semantically. These are possible replacements for "Settings" although I think Settings is not that bad here!

Proposal for improved menu based on above analysis

:
Save Settings
Save Settings As...
---
Save Settings As Default
---
Edit Current Scheme...
Remove Current Scheme

***

Concerning the "Templates" (MUSIC etc) -- I have planned this from the beginning and it's internally already implemented; I will add it once the basic stuff works alright.

"Match pattern", resp. "Match pattern(s)" (adding "|" as list separator is a good idea) is okay, but there might be something better. I think the work folder should be there because that's what it's basically all about.

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 15:12**

jacky wrote:
admin wrote:Hm, I like the current menu organization better.
Well, I guess you're entitled to your own opinion, even if you're wrong
Seriously though, I prefer my suggestion because all commands that apply to the current Folder View are together, which sounds more logical/looks better to me. As it is now, we have Save & Save As which don't relate to the same things, then Save As Default which is something else altogether, and then back to the current FV with Remove & Edit. You almost have to stop for a sec each item and wonder if the command refers to the current FV or not. At least in my suggestion you know the first group is all about the current FV, others are not.

About the Save As, I suggested "Edit & Save New Folder View..." because I find using "Save As" might be a bit confusing, as it seems to imply we're changing a name while in reality not only can we change all settings (i.e. Edit), but it's not as much a name as it is the folder/pattern where the FV should be applied, hence why using the term "Save As New FV" seemed (more) appropriate, and (to me) better than just "Save As..." or "Save As Copy".

Okay, I get your point of what belongs together. Here for easy comparison

my last proposal:

Code: Select all

Save Settings 
Save Settings As... 
--- 
Save Settings As Default 
--- 
Edit Current Scheme... 
Remove Current Scheme

reordered according to jacky:

Code: Select all

Save Settings 
Edit Current Scheme... 
Remove Current Scheme
---
Save Settings As New Scheme... 
Save Settings As Default Scheme

variant version:

Code: Select all

Save Settings 
Edit Active Scheme... 
Remove Active Scheme
---
Save Settings As... 
Save Settings As Default

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 15:14**

admin wrote:You will have noted that I have left a lot of space in the "Applied Settings" frame.

To be honest I am thinking you should have used a tree view with check boxes. If implemented now it would prevent you from possibly having space issues later, and it would allow for a way of categorizing the settings.

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 15:15**

Two more remarks.

(1) A sort of List management for all scheme is planned, of course.

(2) Please do not put much work into elaborate FSS configurations. This is BETA and I will probably change the data structure of fss.dat a couple of times which means all your work will be lost! I will only provide upgrade code after the first official release of FSS. So, just play with it a little...

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 15:18**

admin wrote:Proposal for improved menu based on above analysis :
Save Settings
Save Settings As...
---
Save Settings As Default
---
Edit Current Scheme...
Remove Current Scheme

meh, I still like mine better!

I also still think "Settings" isn't a good idea here, because when one sees, in menu "Folder Specific Settings", a command to "Save Settings", it isn't abnormal to think it's about the same as the one in "Settings" that reads "Save Folder Specific Settings"

I understand it's FSS and Settings is a general term that applies here, but I feel it's not really a good idea to use it like that. I feel the notion as "saving settings" in XY is associated with saving them, aka to INI/DAT.

I personally have no problem with Scheme, though as I said earlier...

jacky wrote:Given what I read, I think the best (IMO) might be to use "Folder View", since that term seems to be what's used in WE and might be known to others, but insisting on the "Folder View" as it is different than "Views", which is otherwise a Tab setting (Details, Thumb, etc) whereas Folder View is specific to a given folder (regardless of the Tab) and refers to different things, including Views.

That said, it might be better to keep "Folder Specific Settings" as the name of the feature, because that's how it is widely known I believe. Just, FSS allow one to define some Folder Views (which are Views, Sort Order, Column Visibility/Order, etc)

After all this is what we're defining here, even if we add Show IP, etc : it is how this specific folder will be "viewed" in XY, it is a kind of a "Folder View".

***

admin wrote:"Match pattern", resp. "Match pattern(s)" (adding "|" as list separator is a good idea) is okay, but there might be something better. I think the work folder should be there because that's what it's basically all about.

you mean as a label ? Couldn't it just be something like "Pattern to match folder(s)" then ?

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 15:51**

jacky wrote:
admin wrote:Proposal for improved menu based on above analysis :
Save Settings
Save Settings As...
---
Save Settings As Default
---
Edit Current Scheme...
Remove Current Scheme
meh, I still like mine better! ...

I'm not surprised.

MS talks about "view settings":
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/812003

I researched "folder view"... yes, it's quite commonly used for what is meant here. But then it should be "Folder Specific Views" -- a very uncommon term according to google.
Equally common as "view settings" is "folder view settings" which is too long but could be abbreviated to "Settings"!

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 16:25**

admin wrote:I researched "folder view"... yes, it's quite commonly used for what is meant here. But then it should be "Folder Specific Views" -- a very uncommon term according to google.
Equally common as "view settings" is "folder view settings" which is too long but could be abbreviated to "Settings"!

Or, to avoid confusion, "Folder View"

As I said I don't think it'd be a problem to talk about the feature "Folder Specific Settings", as a whole, but that "inside" of it, when using it, it's about "Folder Views".

That way,
- to save a Folder View means the settings, yes, of (how) a folder (is "viewed"). That's also only temporary, "in memory".
- to save Folder Specific Settings means the whole thing, all the Folder Views, and to the disk (fss.dat)

Makes sense to me.

Posted: **07 Aug 2008 16:34**

jacky wrote:
admin wrote:I researched "folder view"... yes, it's quite commonly used for what is meant here. But then it should be "Folder Specific Views" -- a very uncommon term according to google.
Equally common as "view settings" is "folder view settings" which is too long but could be abbreviated to "Settings"!
Or, to avoid confusion, "Folder View" As I said I don't think it'd be a problem to talk about the feature "Folder Specific Settings", as a whole, but that "inside" of it, when using it, it's about "Folder Views".

That way,
- to save a Folder View means the settings, yes, of (how) a folder (is "viewed"). That's also only temporary, "in memory".
- to save Folder Specific Settings means the whole thing, all the Folder Views, and to the disk (fss.dat)

Makes sense to me.

Okay, I further tuned (minimalized!) my proposal (which already adapted jacky's organization), and now it's about these two:

don's:

Code: Select all

    Enable Folder Specific Settings
    ---
    Save Settings 
    Edit... 
    Remove
    --- 
    Save Settings As... 
    Save Settings As Default

jacky's:

Code: Select all

    Enable Folder Specific Settings
    ---
    Save Folder View 
    Edit Folder View... 
    Remove Folder View 
    ---
    Edit & Save New Folder View... 
    Save As Default Folder View

Let's hear some other opinions about why mine is better!

XYplorer Beta Club

Folder Specific Settings Bugs