XYplorer Beta Club

j_c_hallgren wrote:You may use ZIP's daily now but if it were me, I'd reexamine if that isn't becoming an obsolete way to handle files like many of us have found because I don't see future technology providing for them,

Zip format is still at the core of many backup programs, including disk imaging software and the like. It remains useful as a way to create a container for a fileset for whatever purpose -- email, backup, simple management, distribution (would you want to download 150 files individually to install a new program?) I'd have said that zip (and related technologies) were becoming more, not less, embedded as time goes on.

Technically a ZIP is NOT a folder, of course. The Zip-Folder technology has to extract the files in the archive to some temporary folder, and then handle them from there, and afterwards delete them. There is a lot of CPU action and bytes reading and writing when managing Zip-Folders. When you look at user forums of file managers that support it you will see that over many years a large percentage of postings are about issues with this feature. It is very complex to get it right, it's a BIG can of worms. Really, from a developer's point of view it is ridiculous to claim a ZIP is a folder. It's not.

But, of course, if Zip-Folder technology is so important to a user then he should go somewhere else, to a file manager where a lot of time is spent in getting this feature right. Over here at XY we develop the really hot stuff in the meantime.

admin wrote: if Zip-Folder technology is so important to a user then he should go somewhere else

Some clear words, finally. I appreciate this more than all lame excuses I've been exposed to. Just wish you'd be more up front and open about this instead of keeping this "BIG can of worms" on your roadmap.

admin wrote:When you look at user forums of file managers that support it you will see that over many years a large percentage of postings are about issues with this feature. It is very complex to get it right

Simply not true. Not the forums I've been to. Unless you're talking about 10 years ago when they introduced it.

Don't know how complex it is to get it right. Debatable, I'd say, every programmer takes pride in different abilities. Never had a single incident in 10 years of heavy ZIP usage, never used a 3rd party tool, either.
Didn't mean to make you defensive. In fact, I deeply regret that this ends on such a sour note.

admin wrote:Over here at XY we develop the really hot stuff in the meantime.

No doubt about that. But I need the basics, too, bread and butter, then the toppings. You've got features others can only dream about. But the few things they do have, I can use in my workflow, with ZIP-folders, forgive me for still calling them folders, it may be technically incorrect, but I am in the driver's seat, not under the hood.

I am not as lucky as you are, I cannot simply tell my clients and the world to stop using ZIP.
Following your advice and moving on.
GoodBye.

Well, you had some good ideas here, thanks for that!

All the best (but I really doubt you will find anything that comes close)!

Geez... I don't respond to this over the weekend and you all blow up, argue, pack your things, and leave on me.
And now on Monday morning it doesn't seem there's any reason to respond, but I still will - that's just the kind of guy I am!

Stef123 wrote:

TheQwerty wrote: The preview pane should now display the contents of the currently focused & selected Zip file.
Extracting items works well

Can't get this to work. Copy To ... Tabs/Favorites/whatever won't work, drag'n drop doesn't work either.

I never claimed "Copy To..." would work.

I've just verified once again that drag 'n' drop works correctly for extracting files (as I originally claimed). Adding files to an archive via d&d is difficult because you cannot select another item without XY closing the preview... and also because of all of dragons in the dungeons.

Copying and pasting via the clipboard works as well. Again this is different from the File > Move/Copy/Backup To... options.

Stef123 wrote:Surely, there's got to be a better way of handling Zip files than what's described here? Could someone please help me along with some kind of decent workflow?

I use WinRAR and have both the 32-bit and 64-bit shell extensions installed so I can just use it via the context menu. I view their contents in WinRAR, but more often than not my workflow is:

1. Receive archive.
2. Right-Click > WinRAR > Extract to 'archive\'.
3. Move archive into new folder or delete it.

I also have a script which offers many of the same options as the context menu but takes much less time to appear.

I have to agree with the folks who say a zip is only a file. You use VLC to view videos, not edit them. There's Premiere for that. XY is a file manager and sometimes previewer. If I were Don, I guess the compromise solution would be embedding some unzip/unrar dll's that would allow a preview of what's inside an archive, but no modification nor creation whatsoever.

And to the people having zip's at the core of their file management, what would zip support add that couldn't be obtained by putting XY on the left half of the screen and Winrar (or your archive manager of choice) on the right half?

Plus, could someone give a proper definition of zip support?

Coming too late...
To be fair, I feel someone needs to be the devil's advocate here (& I'm at the other end of the spectrum, happily using FreeArc plus case-dedicated customized CommandLine accesses in CTBs).

• Zip being files and not folders or leprechauns is off the point.
• Debating whether it's useful or sensible to use zip nowadays is off the point.
• Point is (in the case presented by Stef123):
When your position is to deal with Average Joes (no disrespect) -with no possibility to educate-
- you have FIRST to be able to deal with what they've been forged to expect
- and only then can you hope that you may mold habits in the longer run.

• That being said, whether it's worthy, important, or a priority to have zip support in XY, that is debatable.
(But don't mind me, I've no use for it )

---------

Now, for more fun, some basics of expected-behavior zip support could already be done via scripting.
Just as a minute-maid-brainstorm proof of concept (no time / no interest to dig further):

Double-click on Zip > catch by PFA > opened by script, which:
Create folder with Zip name & Open it (so it feels natural and instantaneous)> catch by PFI to iconize folder with Zip icon >
Extract zip in folder > Send Zip file out of the way (to temp folder)
etc...

Did a little research and it turns out that the very basic ZIP functions are quite easy to achieve. I could offer the following functions and they would work even on systems where WinZip (and the like) is not present (which admittedly is a good thing to have for a portable application):

1. Extract Here / Extract To...
2. Archive Selected Items as ZIP

Also possible, but considerably more effort, would be:

3. List the contents of a ZIP...
4. ... and extract particular items (via right-click menu, or by drag and drop).

Would that be of any value to anybody here? (Certainly not for me. )

My personal pov(s)

1. That would save me some lines of code in my updater script. That's my only scenario, since I use winrar context menu all the time (extraction offloaded to another process means I can still work with XY)
2. Again, I use rar for backups
3. That would be interesting (it would certainly feel more seamless), but not a big deal for me since I use rar's
4. Same as 3.

But now the pro-zip folks should speak.

Currently I had to install a linemode version of IZArc to automatically extract the zip of test-versions of some programm named "XYplorer". (It can be downloaded by zip, you know )
It would be fine if such functions would be possible without an external program. That's your function 1.

And in some situations function 2. would be fine, too. Though I'd wish to add 2b. -> *Add* Selected Items to an existing zip file.

I think even these functions would help XY to show that zip file organization is basically supported, and maybe bring some scripters to use it. (I think there is some XY install script, where users have to fit this script to their used extraction program? [Haha - just saw Marcos comment ])

Sure: I hope that this is just a beginning - and that later on your support for zip might be expanded - but just these functions would help quite a lot, I think.

PeterH wrote:Sure: I hope that this is just a beginning - and that later on your support for zip might be expanded ...

Yeah, this is the problem... the big can of worms is opening...

PS:
>> *Add* Selected Items to an existing zip file.
Yep, that would work as well.

I basically share the opinions of Marco and PeterH. In my case it would be a "nice-to-have". Since the most of compressed files in my environments are *.rar, the sole support of *.zip would not mean much for me.

If I ware you I would think about supporting a very well defined set of functions (like "create a new tab with the contents file list of a specified *.{zip|rar}", "drag out somewhere, with decompression included", "drag in from somewhere with compression and overwrite control included"). Also, from the very beginning, I would think of providing a new set of GUI layout colors for a file list, when it is a "compressed file content" list.

In doing all that, I would try to achieve an "open installation interface", through which a user could define/adapt for instance: the position of the to-be-used compression tool and necessary command line options needed for supporting the upper basic functions defined by you. (For WinZip and WinRar these settings would be provided as factory defaults and examples.)

My greatest concerns would revolve around modal/modeless/threading questions, in order to avoid a hang/blocking of XYplorer during lengthy and processor intensive compressions/decompressions. I am not sure if - in the case of XYplorer - this would require a separate helper exe, analog to XYcopy.exe. Also, some support of password entry would be very necessary in my case.

The whole thing would definitely be an interesting task with - most probably - much user echo.

Edit: Although, it is not a can of worms, it is a cave of worms. And they are very bloodthirsty, I am afraid.

You know, the last time I added something big against my own conviction, Dual Pane, there were great expectations about attracting the dual pane crowd from TC. It never happened. Dual Pane did not have the slightest notable impact on the sales numbers. A big dual flop. Adding ZIP support as you described it (and since long I have plans worked out for a maximally streamlined ZIP-support including search, preview, everything -- therefore I know how much work it would be) would take energy from much more interesting ideas I have for features that really improve the workflow instead of just following average Joe's expectations from WE.

Yes, that is the fundamental question for a commercial software. How many average Joes would say: "Ah, this one masters even the integration of compressed files in it, besides all those features the others do not have! NOW I have to have it! Let me jump "with both feet" onto the buy page!"

Lately I have the impression that there are some red features on your to do list which, when once implemented, could provoke this kind of decision making. (Like: Some workaround regarding 64bit-Shell issues, Live Filter for List, Clickable Droppable Per Pane Breadcrumb, Native support for ZIP and RAR, Support for Non-Drive Devices. Although I personally regard them as nice-to-have, some would be very-nice-to-have and, maybe, have a "strategic" value.)

Foots!