XYplorer Beta Club

TheQwerty wrote:Please don't put words in my mouth by implying I was trying to come up with a list of single click methods. I never claimed they were - what I said was they were "all the ways I knew of." Clearly you wrongly assumed I meant single click because you'd like to convey that I'm a moron who doesn't know the difference between the keyboard and the mouse, am unable to count, or some other silly reason. Anyone else would correctly assume that I was implying that these were the ways I knew of for closing a tab.

Heck if I was using the same standard that you used originally of "using just mouse" only 3 of those 10 are invalidated, though you could painfully still accomplish 2 of them using just the mouse.

OK, let's work through this. I was evaluating your ways of closing a tab against the criteria that I saw fit in relation to the proposed functionality addition. In fact, your list of ways to close did a good job of illustrating that there are ways that most people would probably never think off straight away when asked.

TheQwerty wrote:Besides, in that last post you've changed the conditions yet again.
First it was an easy way to close tabs.
Then an easy way to close tabs using just the mouse.
Then an easy way to close tabs using a single click from the mouse.
Then an easy way to close tabs using a single click from the mouse but not a middle mouse button or wheel acting as such.
Now it's an easy way to close tabs using a single click on the tab from the mouse but not a middle mouse button or wheel acting as such.

Right from the very beginning, it was implied that this functionality is to be present on the tab and one click of a mouse is to be used. That's why I used examples of Internet Explorer, Firefox and Miranda IM (0.8 betas), all of which have that functionality present on the tab using a single click of a mouse.

ivan wrote: 9. Most modern mice don't have a middle button

Just to nitpick

Pretty much every moderm mouse has a middle button. Click the wheel.

Please don't get literal and tell me it isn't a button because "the middle mouse button" almost always (sorry mac users) implies clicking the mouse wheel. You would probably get baffled looks if you handed the average joe computer user a literal 3 button mouse and told them to click the middle button. They would probably be wondering where the wheel is at!

eurytos wrote:Just to nitpick

Pretty much every modern mouse has a middle button. Click the wheel.

Please don't get literal and tell me it isn't a button because "the middle mouse button" almost always (sorry mac users) implies clicking the mouse wheel. You would probably get baffled looks if you handed the average joe computer user a literal 3 button mouse and told them to click the middle button. They would probably be wondering where the wheel is at!

Just to nitpick some more

A mouse wheel is a mouse wheel, its distinct purpose is to scroll either up and down (XY even does sideways scroll). It happens to have a "nice to have" functionality of being clickable, but mouse wheel was not designed to be the middle mouse button. Additionally, I'm sure people who use Unix or Unix-like OSes and run X Window System wouldn't want you to refer to mouse wheel as the middle button because that's not how X maps the mouse buttons.

I wouldn't get baffled looks if I was to give a person a mouse with 3 actual buttons and asked them to click the middle button. In fact, these days, I'm more likely to encounter awkwardness if I give a mouse with 2 buttons and wheel and asked them to click the middle button. I'd also be willing to bet there are people who have been using a scroll wheel mouse for years and are not aware that the wheel is clickable. It's not an orthodox approach and this is reflected by how tabs are closed in IE, Firefox and Miranda.

I am sorry guys but I have to leave this post. I will keep a watch on discussions about mice and men.

serendipity wrote:I am sorry guys but I have to leave this post. I will keep a watch on discussions about mice and men.

It is unfortunate that this discussion has been reduced to that. However, you can only fish for so long before throwing a stick of dynamite in. I believe instead of advocating the current ways, we should look at this wish in terms of its benefits and how wide the proposed functionality is used in software.

Let's face it, we are all creatures of habit so, if you get this functionality in apps that have tabs and use it on a frequent basis, you get used to it and like it.
Here's some further reading on the matter:
1. Explanation of how to change Firefox's config for close icons on each active tab.
http://www.mydigitallife.info/2006/10/2 ... tab-strip/
2. Official Firefox Mozillazine's info page about "new" close icon on each tab:
http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/ben/archives/009210.html

i'm against the close button, unless it's optional.
i love it in FF.
but in xy, middle-click is enough to me.

@ivan
definition of "button" taken from a dictionary:

4. any small knob or disk pressed to activate an electric circuit, release a spring, or otherwise operate or open a machine, small door, toy, etc.

pretty much every app, game, etc. (at least for windows, and that's what matter here) assing the name "mouse button 3" to the mouse wheel button.
besides, the middle-click, is still a click (the name "click" comes from the sound it makes).
it doesn't matter if it's a "button" or not, you CAN close a tab with 1 click.

and you said it yourself:

Let's face it, we are all creatures of habit so, if you get this functionality in apps that have tabs and use it on a frequent basis, you get used to it and like it.

i also didn't like to use the middle-click at first and wanted a close button on the tab (i'm addicted to FF), but i quickly got used to it.

ivan wrote:c) Most mice these days don't come with a middle button and using mousewheel for clicking is out of ordinary.

i don't think it's out of ordinary.
in fact, about 5 months ago i had to buy a new mouse because my wheel-button got too easy too click (i.e., just resting my finger over the wheel) due to extensive use of the middle-click (damn you, FF ).
and when i was looking for a new mouse, in 5 different stores (not counting supermarkets), i don't remember seeing even one mouse without a middle-button.
most of the latest models are actually coming with at least 5 buttons.

ivan wrote:A mouse wheel is a mouse wheel, its distinct purpose is to scroll either up and down (XY even does sideways scroll). It happens to have a "nice to have" functionality of being clickable, but mouse wheel was not designed to be the middle mouse button.

it's not the wheel that got a button, but the button that got a wheel.
more than ten years ago i had a mouse with a middle button that was used in place of the double left-click.
then i got a new mouse with a middle button with scrolling functionality.
after that i got a mouse with a wheel over the middle-button.

the left MB also wasn't made to be double-clicked (seriously, M$ wanted to patent the dbl-click ), but i bet you use it a lot.


p.s.:i think this is my longest post so far.

Muroph wrote:i'm against the close button, unless it's optional.
i love it in FF.
but in xy, middle-click is enough to me.
pretty much every app, game, etc. (at least for windows, and that's what matter here) assing the name "mouse button 3" to the mouse wheel button.
besides, the middle-click, is still a click (the name "click" comes from the sound it makes).
it doesn't matter if it's a "button" or not, you CAN close a tab with 1 click.

Yes, I am in favour of it being optional, make no mistake there. See? I love it in FF as well, in other apps too, so that's why I'd like to see it in another great tabbed app (that's XY ).
While the dictionary can define what a button is, such definition cannot morph a wheel and a button together. "Mouse button 3" is attributed to mouse wheel for legacy reasons. Yes, middle-click is a click, but it's a click of something whose primary purpose is not to click.

Muroph wrote:i also didn't like to use the middle-click at first and wanted a close button on the tab (i'm addicted to FF), but i quickly got used to it.

I do not think it is right that were somewhat forced to use middle-click if you wanted to use just the mouse to close. For me, a mouse wheel is only for scrolling and I'd never get used to nor will use for anything other than scrolling.

Muroph wrote:i don't think it's out of ordinary.
in fact, about 5 months ago i had to buy a new mouse because my wheel-button got too easy too click (i.e., just resting my finger over the wheel) due to extensive use of the middle-click (damn you, FF ).
and when i was looking for a new mouse, in 5 different stores (not counting supermarkets), i don't remember seeing even one mouse without a middle-button.
most of the latest models are actually coming with at least 5 buttons.

Your example of the wheel becoming too easy to click because of extensive use is a negative effect of having to use the middle button. Now what if you didn't have to use the wheel so much and could do the same with left mouse button? Would that be good or bad? I think it will be a good thing.

Muroph wrote:it's not the wheel that got a button, but the button that got a wheel.
more than ten years ago i had a mouse with a middle button that was used in place of the double left-click.
then i got a new mouse with a middle button with scrolling functionality.
after that i got a mouse with a wheel over the middle-button.

I strongly disagree. The scroll wheel is one of the first hardware elements designed directly as a response to proliferation world wide web. Therefore, the mouse wheel replaced the middle button but for legacy reasons the clicking functionality of the middle button was preserved. Additionally, not every mouse's scroll wheel has such functionality, which illustrates the growing desire to step away from legacy functions. With mice these days having configurable side buttons etc I cannot help but wonder whether the industry is looking to restrict the mouse wheel to scrolling purposes only, which is what majority people use it for.

Muroph wrote:p.s.:i think this is my longest post so far.

and a good and important one i should say. not only for this forum, but for the human race as well.

~
now that we have discussed some technical aspects of the phenomenon "button", please lets broaden our point of view a little bit and see the whole thing from an epistomological angle.

the freudian perspective would also be an interesting disuccion. you know, hysteric reactions associated with middle-mouse-buttons can be a defense mechanism for something lying much deeper and can be based on traumatic experiences someone made in the past.

in addition to that we really should not miss the opportunity to start a mutual project here: let's collect the "click" sounds of different mice. this could be our legacy we can deliver to posterity.

so, please, guyz. let's size the opportunity with both hands!

p.s. i really hope you realize that i spare no effort to meet the high standards of this forum. i abstained from my beloved abbreviations and sms slang, i tried to write whole words and sentences, i tried to improve my grammar and spelling. thank you, ivan and hallgren, you helped me to become a better human being. thank you so much, guyz!

since we were talking about middle-click, i'll post a wish here.
make the action of the mdl-click on a tab configurable, like the dbl-click.

@ivan
-the mdl-click is not a secondary function to me.
i use it very often, and because i like it, not because i was forced to do it.
that's why i had to replace my mouse, and this time i bought one with a mdl-button very hard to click.
-what if i could do everything with the left-button?
if i have to choose between a mdl-click in a 200+px tab or having to aim a left-click in a 16x16px square in said tab, i'll stick with the mdl-click, thank you.
-the mouse-wheel didn't replace the mdl-button, since the button is still there.
and i don't think the MMB will be dropped so soon.
it's easily clickable and more intuitive than the side buttons, since you click with your index finger, the same finger as the contantly used LMB.
in my mouse i can use both the LMB and the MMB without even moving my finger.
-imo, side buttons have some disadvantages.
they can't be positioned right under the thumb, to prevent accidental clicks when moving the mouse.
that, plus the fact that you have to ckick with your thumb, makes it harder to click.
and in many mouses with SB i used, it was very easy to accidentaly click both SB at the same time.

i think we could argue like this for days.
tastes differ, after all.

@sensei

sensei wrote:and a good and important one i should say. not only for this forum, but for the human race as well.

it sure was more important than your TWO posts in this thread together. i at least voiced my opinion on the important matter before joining the off-topic discussion, while you did neither.

sensei wrote:p.s. i really hope you realize that i spare no effort to meet the high standards of this forum. i abstained from my beloved abbreviations and sms slang, i tried to write whole words and sentences, i tried to improve my grammar and spelling. thank you, ivan and hallgren, you helped me to become a better human being. thank you so much, guyz!

good, you're on the right track.
only two things remaining:
1-RESPECT other people in the forum (and out of the forum as well)
a simple "please guys, let's get back on topic" works wonders when the discussion starts going off-topic.
you don't need to use foul language and try to make other people look like idiots.
2-my golden rule, if i don't have anything useful to say, just keep your mouth shut.

Muroph wrote:@ivan
-the mdl-click is not a secondary function to me.
i use it very often, and because i like it, not because i was forced to do it.
that's why i had to replace my mouse, and this time i bought one with a mdl-button very hard to click.
-what if i could do everything with the left-button?
if i have to choose between a mdl-click in a 200+px tab or having to aim a left-click in a 16x16px square in said tab, i'll stick with the mdl-click, thank you.
-the mouse-wheel didn't replace the mdl-button, since the button is still there.
and i don't think the MMB will be dropped so soon.
it's easily clickable and more intuitive than the side buttons, since you click with your index finger, the same finger as the contantly used LMB.
in my mouse i can use both the LMB and the MMB without even moving my finger.
-imo, side buttons have some disadvantages.
they can't be positioned right under the thumb, to prevent accidental clicks when moving the mouse.
that, plus the fact that you have to ckick with your thumb, makes it harder to click.
and in many mouses with SB i used, it was very easy to accidentaly click both SB at the same time.

i think we could argue like this for days.
tastes differ, after all.

Yes, we can argue about this for days and I appreciate that taste differ, which is why I don't mind if it's made optional. I also don't want to argue, but currently the clickable functionality of the mouse wheel is utilised in most apps by default as something not particularly important. I'm sure you can set it as something important, but for the majority this would not apply. Every tabbed application I know and use has a close icon on each tab so there is clearly a widespread benefit there. Some people may not like it or may prefer to stick to the way they are used to, which is where making this feature optional comes in.

First, an adapted/revised quote:

sensei wrote:Are you bored, do you have too much free time, or are you just crazy?

So many posts for such a simple thing! And on the other side there are so many great suggestions on this board where no single member found it worth to respond.

Sometimes I really would like to know what you are thinking here...

sensei: I've tweaked the above to be more consistent with language and sentiments normally expressed here, because although usage of certain words is not unknown to me, I try to keep this forum as professional and child-friendly as possible, and hope you may do likewise....and I somewhat agree with parts of the above!

All: I don't recall seeing any mention of Opera browser as an example, as it within the advanced options for tabs on preferences, has an setting for "close button on every tab"...so while I'd likely not use it in XY, I do use it in Opera...yes, as had been pointed out, there are numerous existing ways to do it, but my limited experience with older generation users show me that some users get very familiar with the standard ways of doing things and might feel more comfortable with a "x" button available via option.

Also, I'm a laptop with touchpad user, so while the touchpad can be configured to simulate a middle-click, it's not something I use often enough to bother with so I prefer things that I can access via pad, even if it may be easier to click an actual key.

j_c_hallgren wrote:All: I don't recall seeing any mention of Opera browser as an example, as it within the advanced options for tabs on preferences, has an setting for "close button on every tab"...so while I'd likely not use it in XY, I do use it in Opera...yes, as had been pointed out, there are numerous existing ways to do it, but my limited experience with older generation users show me that some users get very familiar with the standard ways of doing things and might feel more comfortable with a "x" button available via option.

Also, I'm a laptop with touchpad user, so while the touchpad can be configured to simulate a middle-click, it's not something I use often enough to bother with so I prefer things that I can access via pad, even if it may be easier to click an actual key.

J C, you are absolutely correct. I myself acknowledge that this option is not for everyone, but I believe there will be more people in favour of having it than opposing it. Additionally, not making it available by default would be a good idea so you're not forced to use it, by either a quick tick of a box or a tweak to the INI file and you'll be good to go. This wish wouldn't add any bloat to somewhat anorexic XY and will make a very nice addition to the list of features that are common to lots of tabbed applications.