XYplorer Beta Club

JC wrote:

Don't bail out on us now! We need input from people like you to help keep this on track and going in the right direction!

Since you make the above point then it deserves a response. I am not bailing out, but DP holds no interest to me and it does not help if my contributions are negative. As the debate has progressed I have become more convinced that DP is not worth the effort. There are other products that specialise in the use of DP and if one has a specific need for DP then these fit the bill.

I accept this view is not what some may want to hear but it is my opinion.

As to going in the right direction, my considered view is that this is a diversion and will not affect sales that much (guess) and could possible have a negative impact on XY (gut feeling). Maybe I have it wrong, but as a casual user of XY, scripting has already made a massive impact on my management of files and I suspect XY is unique in its application of this powerful feature. It is the innovative ideas that turn me on and I feel sure there are lots more to come - better to lead than copy!

graham wrote:
It is the innovative ideas that turn me on and I feel sure there are lots more to come - better to lead than copy!

And I can completely understand that view. By the same token, your favorite word processor might be able to make toast and babysit your kids - but if it doesn't have the ability to save as a text file, it's not the leader of anything.

Good features are good features - and somebody else having it first doesn't change that. Otherwise, why should XY have a tree pane and file pane? Let those other file managers have those common features - we'll be able to do VOIP! </sarcasm>

graham wrote: I am not bailing out, but DP holds no interest to me and it does not help if my contributions are negative. As the debate has progressed I have become more convinced that DP is not worth the effort. There are other products that specialise in the use of DP and if one has a specific need for DP then these fit the bill.
.......
It is the innovative ideas that turn me on and I feel sure there are lots more to come - better to lead than copy!

On the contrary, while you may think DP isn't worth it in total, I think you can still provide some guidance in keeping this discussion on-track for some details, even if those comments might tend to be negative...just try to look at it from the detail viewpoint, not the overall, ok?

Also, as I'd said once before, as I understand it, sales of Apple systems went up a good amount once they started being able to run Windows also, so if Apple who is considered innovative and different now goes along with the mainstream Windows as a side benefit, then having DP in XY isn't that much different from that, IMO!
I believe this is the leading example of "if you can't beat em, join em" that relates to this situation...there are people who'd never ever consider buying an Apple who now have done so just because they can use Windows as option.

Addendum:Basic new functions or variants needed with DP (that I use most often in x2 when I have to resort to it instead of XY):
1) Ability to define "other pane" as destination for move/copy
2) Some ability to syncronize panes and mark matches as selected in both...x2 lite has sufficient matching criteria for me, but that may not suit others...however, if it's good enough for x2, then it can be considered as basic need, as other FM's with DP appear to have more extensive ones.
3) Ability to hide/filter all non-selected items after a sync

j_c_hallgren wrote:
Addendum:Basic new functions or variants needed with DP (that I use most often in x2 when I have to resort to it instead of XY):
1) Ability to define "other pane" as destination for move/copy
2) Some ability to syncronize panes and mark matches as selected in both...x2 lite has sufficient matching criteria for me, but that may not suit others...however, if it's good enough for x2, then it can be considered as basic need, as other FM's with DP appear to have more extensive ones.
3) Ability to hide/filter all non-selected items after a sync

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by any of these items. Can you clarify a bit?

It occurred to me that since XY already allows you to set the colors for a lot of the UI, including the pane background color, that it would be easy to allow for both options currently on the table to differentiate the active pane/tab. The proposal has been modified to account for this.

That being said, let's take a look at what issues are currently (as of v1.15) on the table that needs further discussion:


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Tab Implementation

The only item currently on this feature that needs discussion is the Default Tab. The Default Tab feature currently has a limit of one tab. I would think that this could be set independently for each pane, but the question is whether it serves a purpose to do so.


Catalog

As I mentioned in the proposal, for simplicity's sake, we shouldn't change the fact that there is only one Catalog (insofar as its contents). The first question on the table is whether there should be a single Catalog pane, or dual Catalog panes. After that's addressed, we then get to the second issue of how should this be implemented, aesthetically.

If there is only one Catalog pane, than it would work as it currently does, and act on whichever Tab is active (regardless of which pane it's in). Otherwise, if there are dual Catalog panes, they would work on the active tab of their respective panes.

Unless it factors into your decision on the single/dual pane catalog question, let's shelve the issue of aesthetics until we get this first item addressed. For reference, the main possible approaches for the UI integration are listed on the proposal.


Info Panel

We need to discuss whether there should be a single shared Info Panel, dual Info Panels, or if it should be user-configurable for either.

There's no good way to have dual Info Panels in top-bottom mode (because of the huge drain on vertical space), but it's feasable to have dual Info Panels in left-right mode.

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So, let's hear some thoughts as to what people would like insofar as these three items. (Obviously, if there are any additional concerns, please bring them up!)

Mesh wrote:I'm not exactly sure what you mean by any of these items. Can you clarify a bit?

and ! Huh? Given that all three of these are, I understand, part of core functionality that one would expect as a minimum with a DP setup, so to not recognize these items seems...at the least...a bit unusual.

I don't think I used any terms that were that incorrect, but I may not have used the terminology you may be used to...thus...

I'd suggest you try out xplorer2 lite (limited ability/freeware) to see for yourself what I'm used to doing.

All the items I've listed are so simple that I can't explain them any better...sorry!

j_c_hallgren wrote:
and ! Huh? Given that all three of these are, I understand, part of core functionality that one would expect as a minimum with a DP setup, so to not recognize these items seems...at the least...a bit unusual.

I don't think I used any terms that were that incorrect, but I may not have used the terminology you may be used to...thus...

I'm sure most of it is just a terminology/wording issue.

For example, you list "Ability to define other pane as destination for move/copy". I don't understand this, as there's no need to define anything when dragging files from one pane to another.


And I assume by "synchronizing panes", you're referring to scrolling them in sync (correct me if I'm wrong), but I'm not sure what you're referring to by "matching". Remember that I usually work with dissimilar lists, so most things I do have to be done manually.

And loading up Xplorer2 again won't help if I don't know what to look for.

Mesh wrote:For example, you list "Ability to define other pane as destination for move/copy". I don't understand this, as there's no need to define anything when dragging files from one pane to another.

To make it a bit easier (due to my current vision problem), I'll address the three items in two separate posts..

I very rarely drag&drop (maybe cause I tended to get move/copy mixed up!) so in x2, when I've selected the files I want to copy to the "other pane", I use the TB "Copy to" which brings up the following panel, where the default is that location...



So in XY, the "Copy to" panel/dialog would then be modified to allow user to easily pick that as destination in some similar fashion.

There is a similar "Move to" panel, but I just used "Copy to" as example.

Mesh wrote:And I assume by "synchronizing panes", you're referring to scrolling them in sync (correct me if I'm wrong), but I'm not sure what you're referring to by "matching". Remember that I usually work with dissimilar lists, so most things I do have to be done manually.

X2 has the ability to select items (via Mark|Sync panes) based on user defined (via Mark | Sync Wizard) criteria, as shown in this setup panel:

There are times when I have the same issue as you do with need to do totally manual matching, so in those cases, this doesn't apply, but in other cases, like when I was attempting to locate those files that were missing from one folder after accidental 'Nuke', this feature was invaluable!

Once those items have been marked, you can then "hide" the remaining items that were not marked to better see the desired ones.

There is also synchronized scrolling, but that's another issue totally.

j_c_hallgren wrote:
Once those items have been marked, you can then "hide" the remaining items that were not marked to better see the desired ones.

There is also synchronized scrolling, but that's another issue totally.

Now I know what you're referring to. I just added two sections to the proposal. Take a look at them and tell me what you think.

When discussing the features of the UI, if someone needs help visualizing what some of the proposed changes would look like - let me know.

If I can, I'll put together another mockup to give a rough approximation.


(Skill not covered under warranty, some Assembler may be required.)

As no one has chimed in on the remaining discussion items, I made some choices which should be compatible with most people's needs.

If anyone would like to make any remaining suggestions, now is the time to do so. Otherwise, I will submit this proposal as it currently stands to Don, and get his initial opinion before throwing it back to us (I'm not making the assumption that there won't be any issues with it).

Mesh wrote:As no one has chimed in on the remaining discussion items, I made some choices which should be compatible with most people's needs.

If anyone would like to make any remaining suggestions, now is the time to do so. Otherwise, I will submit this proposal as it currently stands to Don, and get his initial opinion before throwing it back to us (I'm not making the assumption that there won't be any issues with it).

Actually I'm surprised about the lack of interest for this thread. Of course, I always thought dual-pane was over-rated -- but I would have expected some DP hardcorers taking a chance here!

Mesh, maybe you should advertise this thread in other places...

Don

admin wrote:
Actually I'm surprised about the lack of interest for this thread. Of course, I always thought dual-pane was over-rated -- but I would have expected some DP hardcorers taking a chance here!

Mesh, maybe you should advertise this thread in other places...

Don

I'll admit to being a bit surprised as well. The only thing I can think of is that all the people who have asked for this in the past were under the impression that it would never happen, and aren't even looking anymore as a result.

I'll see what I can do to spread the word.

Just to throw my lack of 2 cents into this - I haven't posted in this in thread for several reasons:

1. my DP wishes are pretty basic, so I'm pretty sure they'd be met by almost any proposal that wasn't completely braindead, and Mesh has appeared to put a lot of thought into this
2. JC Hallgren has made his DP use case known in other postings, and they align nearly 100% with mine, so I figured I could let him speak for me
3. I feared that the thread would degenerate into a 'too many cooks' situation, which it apparently hasn't (maybe this is a good thing?)