How about Total Commander like dual pane view?

Features wanted...
j_c_hallgren
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Post by j_c_hallgren »

...so...have you thought about using dual monitors so that you could have one XY session on each? That would allow you to see even more info than if it were DP on single screen... :roll: ok, so it's not that great an idea, but just thought I'd mention it as I recall (I believe) it became the solution for another user... after all, you'd not the the full advantage of some features unless you saw more of a given file, so squeezing two panes on one screen would (to me) thus increase the need to have one dominate anyway.

BTW, my suggestion for a DP implementation was to have two lists but only one tree, as that would give the most amount of space to the Info Panel which I use heavily.
Still spending WAY TOO much time here! But it's such a pleasure helping XY be a treasure!
(XP on laptop with touchpad and thus NO mouse!) Using latest beta vers when possible.

serendipity
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Post by serendipity »

Wow, so much text and emotions in one topic.
I totally agree that some users are used to DP and leaving that can have withdrawal effects. I am not trying to say that one way is better than other. If a user is comfortable with one setup then i totally respect that. But for those who came from non-DP file managers XY is totally a perfect manager for all the tasks. In fact i know people coming from DP also claiming that they dont miss DP that much.
So on one hand pre-DP users think DP is The Best Solution and non-DP users think whats the big deal.
Ofcourse, this is my personal view that I have used DP before (Xplorer2) and still prefer XY's way of file managing. I dont think that XYplorer is in anyway inferior to other file managers because of lack of DP. But to me even if Don agreed to have DP I would not feel the urge to use it simply because I can do better with what XY offers right now.
Thats my 2 cents.

And dont forget, there are several ways to skin a cat.

graham
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Post by graham »

mesh wrote:
That being said, I am continuing to try and make XY work for me, and so far it's turning out exactly as I expected - I absolutely love it, but all the things that are so great about it don't compensate for the fact that it can't do what should be easily done on a file manager.
Great!

I'm sure that Don, after a very well earned rest is eager to read your experiences. Will he change his opinion? Probably not, but rest assured he will read your comments and very few program authors do that! Phase One for starters!!!!!

Btw, the analogy with a car is a good one, I have yet to find one, in my price bracket, that ticks all the boxes but.........

Keep trying on XY, once Don is back and the daily updates start again you will soon appreciate what is really special about this product. OK it lacks a key requirement for you but for me a key requirement is a bug free program and in this respect once Jacky and others find bugs (mostly obscure and minor) the update XY is posted - sometimes the same day.

I have come to believe that the XY experience is more than just using a file manager it is a load of fun seeing it progress. Also, Don is very shrewd with this product, it is not all about sales, it is personal pride and XY shows that in every way. You can tell I am a fan but I'm not alone, so I do hope you will join in.

serendipity
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Post by serendipity »

graham wrote:mesh wrote:
That being said, I am continuing to try and make XY work for me, and so far it's turning out exactly as I expected - I absolutely love it, but all the things that are so great about it don't compensate for the fact that it can't do what should be easily done on a file manager.
Great!

I'm sure that Don, after a very well earned rest is eager to read your experiences. Will he change his opinion? Probably not, but rest assured he will read your comments and very few program authors do that! Phase One for starters!!!!!

Btw, the analogy with a car is a good one, I have yet to find one, in my price bracket, that ticks all the boxes but.........

Keep trying on XY, once Don is back and the daily updates start again you will soon appreciate what is really special about this product. OK it lacks a key requirement for you but for me a key requirement is a bug free program and in this respect once Jacky and others find bugs (mostly obscure and minor) the update XY is posted - sometimes the same day.

I have come to believe that the XY experience is more than just using a file manager it is a load of fun seeing it progress. Also, Don is very shrewd with this product, it is not all about sales, it is personal pride and XY shows that in every way. You can tell I am a fan but I'm not alone, so I do hope you will join in.
You said it all Graham, XY experience is truly amazing.

Mesh
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Post by Mesh »

j_c_hallgren wrote:
...so...have you thought about using dual monitors so that you could have one XY session on each?

I appreciate the suggestion, but that's definitely overkill. It's like saying in response to a bug which makes an app run much slower than it should, that perhaps the users should just buy a faster computer. :)

j_c_hallgren wrote:
BTW, my suggestion for a DP implementation was to have two lists but only one tree, as that would give the most amount of space to the Info Panel which I use heavily.

It seems obvious to me that using a single tree means worsening efficiency by no small margin - I know, it's counterintuitive, until you count all the times you have to click which pane you want active before you can use the tree.

If there's disagreement here, than allowing the choice of one tree or two isn't that big a deal to add in (once the general dual pane support is added, that is).

Mesh
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Post by Mesh »

serendipity wrote:
Wow, so much text and emotions in one topic.
I totally agree that some users are used to DP and leaving that can have withdrawal effects. I am not trying to say that one way is better than other. If a user is comfortable with one setup then i totally respect that. But for those who came from non-DP file managers XY is totally a perfect manager for all the tasks. In fact i know people coming from DP also claiming that they dont miss DP that much.
So on one hand pre-DP users think DP is The Best Solution and non-DP users think whats the big deal.
Ofcourse, this is my personal view that I have used DP before (Xplorer2) and still prefer XY's way of file managing. I dont think that XYplorer is in anyway inferior to other file managers because of lack of DP. But to me even if Don agreed to have DP I would not feel the urge to use it simply because I can do better with what XY offers right now.
Thats my 2 cents.

And dont forget, there are several ways to skin a cat.

You know how people who are ardent supporters of their religion will try to get everyone to convert, and they frequently say that you should keep an open mind and consider the benefits of *their* religion? You'll notice something very interesting happen if you then point out that perhaps they should consider converting to *your* religion. You realize very quickly that their calls for an open mind were only intended in one direction.

That is the distinct feeling one gets from reading many posts about DP on this forum. There are many people pointing out why people should be open to XY's single pane approach, but they often don't give the same respect to people who need or desire a dual pane approach. Those users are suffering from an outmoded mindset, or it's just what they're used to, or it's just mass sheep thinking, etc...


Take your post, for example - you state that you're not trying to say that one way is better than another, and that if a user is comfortable with DP, than you respect that, and that there are several ways to skin a cat...

But, by the same token, you also refer to leaving DP having withdrawal effects. I know you may not have deliberately intended it this way, but that statement dismisses and lessens any legitimate reasons for wanting DP. It's easier to see if you change the subject to something more obvious - "I know some people are used to water, and that leaving that can have withdrawal effects..." Those aren't withdrawal effects - they really do NEED the water. To phrase it in that manner is to say, indirectly, that they don't really need it - they just think they do.

You also use title case when you say that "pre-DP users think DP is The Best Solution". Here again, you're indirectly dismissing the validity of their claim - as making that kind of statement with that type of emphasis is typically used to state the belief that a claim is exagerrated, and is often accompanied by rolling eyes.


Now, please don't get me wrong - it is not my intention to attack you or anyone else on this board in any way. I simply used your post as an example of what I'm seeing in the posts of many users here. People want DP users to be open minded to the validity of XY's single pane approach, but many times, they don't offer that same respect in return.

Mesh
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Post by Mesh »

graham wrote:
I have come to believe that the XY experience is more than just using a file manager it is a load of fun seeing it progress. Also, Don is very shrewd with this product, it is not all about sales, it is personal pride and XY shows that in every way. You can tell I am a fan but I'm not alone, so I do hope you will join in.

Well, I have a few clients who have no current or anticipated future need for DP - and I have introduced them to XY with positive results. So, if nothing else, it looks like I'll be staying a bit to support them if nothing else. :)

serendipity
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Post by serendipity »

Mesh wrote: People want DP users to be open minded to the validity of XY's single pane approach, but many times, they don't offer that same respect in return.
Its the other way around, DP users dont respect the fact that XY is an amazing file manager even without DP. Users want DP simply because other managers have it or they are used to it etc.
We've had numerous posts from people asking for DP even before fully understanding the usability of XY. When somebody uses XY for longer duration he/she will understand that DP is hardly needed for regular work flow.
I understand the impulse of new posters to ask for DP, but all I ask is, give XY a try for few weeks and after that if you still think you are missing DP then explain why exactly you miss DP in XY.

TheQwerty
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Post by TheQwerty »

I still don't understand why you (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer visually comparing in a dual pane file manager over using an actual comparison tool.

Could you (or anyone else) please elaborate on this?

j_c_hallgren
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Post by j_c_hallgren »

TheQwerty wrote:I still don't understand why you (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer visually comparing in a dual pane file manager over using an actual comparison tool.

Could you (or anyone else) please elaborate on this?
Did you see Mesh's lengthy post on "page 7" giving a sample of the file names involved in his case? It's these non-standard type of compares that may not be possible with a compare tool...in my case, I've had totally dissimilar named files of different formats/types so the only way to do it (AFAIK) is visually!

Try to compare a JPG with a BMP via a compare tool! :roll: Ain't happening! And to compound it, the date stamps and file names are nothing alike...but a visual compare works just fine...

Ok, so that may be an extreme case, but it's a good reason to do human compares...as is even the more simple cases of different names and dates...a CRC/MD5 may well work, but a visual works just fine also.

Yes, for many compares, using compare type tools works great, but for the exception, that's when I need to use preview to help verify sameness.
Still spending WAY TOO much time here! But it's such a pleasure helping XY be a treasure!
(XP on laptop with touchpad and thus NO mouse!) Using latest beta vers when possible.

jacky
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Post by jacky »

TheQwerty wrote:I still don't understand why you (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer visually comparing in a dual pane file manager over using an actual comparison tool.

Could you (or anyone else) please elaborate on this?
You know, I don't think this is necessary. I mean, this topic is a very emotional topic it seems and gets lots & lots of reaction, every time it's brought up.

It happened once again, and I think Mesh was pretty good at explaining why people might need a DP setup to get their workflow at his best (see his post above with files having many various names that must be copied/renamed/whatever)

At this point I think we can probably all agree that for many/some users DP might not really be needed, and many of XY fans know that often they don't even bother looking at what makes XY so unique just because it "lacks" DP.
Others might need DP for their workflow, and I feel Mesh clearly stated & explained that was the case for him, as well as having actually tried XY without focusing on the lack of DP.

I only first replied here because I really don't think it's fair to say that Don doesn't take into consideration the users' needs/wishes, far from it. But, as I said, DP is a very special case.

Maybe maybe it could be useful to some, maybe it would improve their workflow, and it's not that Don has been ignoring them, it's that while many ask for DP, not all are able to really justify a need for it (like Mesh or jc have done here), many of them just wants it because they're used to it from about everywhere else.
Clearly, that doesn't mean they actually really need it, or that an alternative ways of doing things couldn't be reached using other XY features. (Clearly, that doesn't either mean they don't need it.)

As jc reminded everyone here, the most used file manager might just be Windows Explorer, and it doesn't come with DP. Proving that a majority of users might just be doing fine without it. I would just say that either way, I don't think that because many do something or ask for something it means it's a good thing.
For something to be popular never meant it was good, the right choice, of quality, or anything else than just that it is popular. I hear hate is really popular around the world, many places have guns being popular, and last time I checked Windows Explorer was no where near being an actual good/powerful/efficient file manager.

XY doesn't aim to be just another file manager, or the file manager that comes with everything that you can find elsewhere. In fact, just the opposite : XY wants to be better, smarter, faster, more powerful & efficient yet still easy to use and smaller than the rest. It wants to be different, to be a real alternative.

To do so choices have to be made, and so far Don choosed other features over DP. Maybe this will change in the future, maybe it won't. I personally love the way this application has evolved and keeps evolving, and I trust Don to keep making the right choices, and such choices aren't only based on what the users want, even though it is part of the equation.

I personally agree that features like UDC, CKS, Scripting or Drop Stack are "better" choices than DP, but that might just be because I don't need to use DP.

Either way, I'm not really sure that anything else must be added now. We know why XY users love XY, we know why DP users need DP, I think both sides have made their points, and I'm pretty sure Don will not choose what to do next based on who's screaming louder, or have the last word ;)

</rant> :oops:
Okay, I'm done.
Proud XYplorer Fanatic

TheQwerty
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Post by TheQwerty »

j_c_hallgren wrote:
TheQwerty wrote:I still don't understand why you (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer visually comparing in a dual pane file manager over using an actual comparison tool.

Could you (or anyone else) please elaborate on this?
Did you see Mesh's lengthy post on "page 7" giving a sample of the file names involved in his case? It's these non-standard type of compares that may not be possible with a compare tool...in my case, I've had totally dissimilar named files of different formats/types so the only way to do it (AFAIK) is visually!

Try to compare a JPG with a BMP via a compare tool! :roll: Ain't happening! And to compound it, the date stamps and file names are nothing alike...but a visual compare works just fine...

Ok, so that may be an extreme case, but it's a good reason to do human compares...as is even the more simple cases of different names and dates...a CRC/MD5 may well work, but a visual works just fine also.

Yes, for many compares, using compare type tools works great, but for the exception, that's when I need to use preview to help verify sameness.
I'm not saying using a compare tool to do it systematically, but the view in these tools is meant for comparing items. The interface is set up for the exact task that you're trying to accomplish.

It's a tool that's specifically built for the task that anyone wanting Dual Pane for comparisons is attempting to accomplish.

And yes compare tools can compare images, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, the image plugin for Beyond Compare will even show you the differences/similarities between the actual image and not just the binary data.

In the case where you're trying to compare files that are of different names, types, contents, sizes, dates, attributes, and everything else, the compare tool is still better suited for the task because it's interface was created for comparing and not for managing.



It really seems to me that the core problem is not that XY needs an always available DP view, but that it needs a good method for comparing folders visually.

graham
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Post by graham »

Jacky wrote:
You know, I don't think this is necessary. I mean, this topic is a very emotional topic it seems and gets lots & lots of reaction, every time it's brought up.
Absolutely, I fear I am maybe being a little contentious here as there is one major difference this time - Don is away and we are deprived of the daily update fix!

Lets just get Version 7 released and see where it goes, that is far more interesting than emotional repeats!

Mesh
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Post by Mesh »

serendipity wrote:
Its the other way around, DP users dont respect the fact that XY is an amazing file manager even without DP. Users want DP simply because other managers have it or they are used to it etc.

Right - "simply because other managers have it or they are used to it etc...". Thank you for proving my point.

serendipity wrote:
We've had numerous posts from people asking for DP even before fully understanding the usability of XY. When somebody uses XY for longer duration he/she will understand that DP is hardly needed for regular work flow.
I understand the impulse of new posters to ask for DP, but all I ask is, give XY a try for few weeks and after that if you still think you are missing DP then explain why exactly you miss DP in XY.

I already did that - see http://www.xyplorer.com/xyfc/viewtopic. ... 0412#20412

Mesh
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Post by Mesh »

TheQwerty wrote:
I still don't understand why you (or anyone else for that matter) would prefer visually comparing in a dual pane file manager over using an actual comparison tool.

Could you (or anyone else) please elaborate on this?

Begging your pardon, but I already did.

http://www.xyplorer.com/xyfc/viewtopic. ... 0412#20412

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