To collab or not - and if: how?

[Filehero]

Thread spawn from here - so let's see where this may end up.

-------------------------------------

Hi,

I didn't want to join the other thread where TheQuerty brought up the collaboration topic for obvious reasons.

Also, anybody else willing to join us to improve this code is free to do so.

My major problem is the constant lack of spare time to make a commitment to support what I call a collaboration. Hacking in the attic for oneself is one thing, but dealing with requests and bugs after release a totally different story. I know this nothing new but it's just to show that I've (again) learned my lesson with LayoutManager recently.

Beyond the scope of this very script, I currently don't see a clear way how a loose collaboration can be organized to suit the developers as well as the consumers need better than working on someones own.

TheQuerty mentioned the heaps of scripts that gotten buried in this forum. Just a thought: Maybe "we" can start off by "simply" trying to generate a "XY expansion pack" consisting of the "best" XY scripts released so far? Next, one could discuss wether this should become the code base on which a whatever-community-approach could be founded? Then "we" ......to be continued.

Maybe we/the crowd better discuss this further in a dedicated thread?


Cheers,
Filehero

[serendipity]

TheQuerty mentioned the heaps of scripts that gotten buried in this forum. Just a thought: Maybe "we" can start off by "simply" trying to generate a "XY expansion pack" consisting of the "best" XY scripts released so far? Next, one could discuss wether this should become the code base on which a whatever-community-approach could be founded? Then "we" ......to be continued.

There used to be a repository for XY scripts which died the way XYwiki did, so not accessible. So a good start would be start such a thing to have dedicated scripts there, rather than digging posts here.

[j_c_hallgren]

Not a scripter but it would seem that using a site that caters to collab coding could be better than this forum -- such as github or sourceforge, right?

We could maintain pointers here to projects there but keep actual code elsewhere...

[TheQwerty]

Some initial topics...

1) It would be beneficial to all if Don were willing to create a separate forum for the script writers to discuss and organize. Then Script Exchange could remain as a place for announcing or requesting scripts, and this effort would not clutter up the other forums.

Or perhaps even replace Script Exchange with a main group "Scripting" with sub-forums: "Requests", "Announcements", "Shop Talk"?

2) The forum is for announcing/requesting scripts and some light feature/bug reports, but there needs to be a better way to share scripts, and updates, with users. Ideally, this would include search and "catalog" (archival) features.

3) The forum is not very good for scripters to actually work collectively on scripts, can we agree on using GitHub, BitBucket, or something similar?


WRT numbers 2 and 3, I want to explore it further but the Sublime Text Package community looks like it could be an ideal model to replicate:
Dev view: http://wbond.net/sublime_packages/package_control
User view: http://wbond.net/sublime_packages/community

[Filehero]

So a good start would be start such a thing to have dedicated scripts there, rather than digging posts here.

... that using a site that caters to collab coding could be better than this forum -- such as github or sourceforge, right?

What should get into this repository initially, just ideas or existing code/scripts?


Imho, it all boils down to outline the main issues of a joint-venture:
- what should be achieved?
- how could it be organized effectively?
- and who will be contributing?


Cheers,
Filehero

[Marco]

@Filehero
I think that almost everybody here lacks somehow spare time, because of study (I myself go to university, serendipity does the same) or work. It's the curse of modern life. Aaanyway, that doesn't mean that a collaboration is impossible, but only that scripting is something done for one own's pleasure and, on top of that, when someone has time. I'm not for a commitment either, but I'm surely able to provide help from time to time. I suppose it can be enough.

To avoid scripts' death yep a repository would be great. I was thinking of a sticky in this subforum, where scripts are grouped by author and only members that post "regularly" are listed (this do avoid lack of manteinance). But I don't know how feasible it is, probably Don only could have write permission to that thread and he is already busy, who knows...

Regarding a collaboration for this last script, my idea is that a "joint venture" is the best thing in order to avoid multiple people reinventing the wheel multiple times. Which is not a bad thing per se, but in this case is an enormous waste of energy, because while most scripts are quite specific (read=not many users), looks like everyone updates XY more or less frequently. So imo a common code, widely used and so tested, would be great.

[Filehero]

@Filehero
I think that almost everybody here lacks somehow spare time, because of study (I myself go to university, serendipity does the same) or work. It's the curse of modern life. Aaanyway, that doesn't mean that a collaboration is impossible, but only that scripting is something done for one own's pleasure and, on top of that, when someone has time. I'm not for a commitment either, but I'm surely able to provide help from time to time. I suppose it can be enough.

I totally agree. I did express my concerns just pre-emptively in order to avoid the premature death of a good and overdue idea.

As for the repository, I'm completely open for any reasonable idea.


Cheers,
Filehero

[Filehero]

Forgot this,

my idea is that a "joint venture" is the best thing in order to avoid multiple people reinventing the wheel multiple times. Which is not a bad thing per se, but in this case is an enormous waste of energy, because while most scripts are quite specific (read=not many users), ...

I think, after all organizational issues we have to address, finding the proper answer to this is the mission-critical challenge.


Chers,
Filehero

[serendipity]

All good points here.
Yes, we should agree upon an repository, I have no idea of what but reading a bit seems like gitorious, github, sourceforge and likes are popular (is google code ideal?). One of you must know what is best, as I have no experience with this. Bottomline being that its simple to use, not a task in itself.
Also, lets see what Don has to say on some points on forum changes.

[drewkeller]

Glad to see this discussion taking place.

You know who the pioneers are because they have arrows sticking out of their butts.

Any git-something is going to be somewhat hindered by the fact that it is based on git (and the somewhat less than user friendly git tools and git weirdness, although git tools have come a long way in the last few years). XYplorer is a Windows product. Git on Windows is a bit behind the curve, compared to git on Linux. That being said, I have found github easy to work with and has some cool features. Anyone can fork from a repository and then merge changes into their fork from other forks. Etc. Plus, the popularity of github.... I probably don't even need to mention it.

I have been using Bazaar for version control for a number of years because it had better, more user friendly tools on Windows. However, it is not nearly as popular as git these days. Bazaar has a (built-in?) module that is intended to work with git repositories, but I have had mediocre success trying to use it that way. I believe launchpad would be the popular repository site for Bazaar projects.

I was using SVN prior to Bazaar. I would recommend against SVN.

Sourceforge might have been the best thing going a number of years ago, but I think it has already lost the battle. Here's some discussion of a few more repository sites.
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4093 ... ourceforge

I imagine xyplorer.com uses a private server of some sort, which might open up the possibility of installing the repository directly (extra work for the admin). I know there are git and bazaar servers. A while ago, I tried installing the bazaar server on my windows Apache setup and it did not go well (it was really designed for a Linux server), so I am leaving my "server" repositories at work as SVN.

Drupal is one case where they recently compared their options (git vs Mercurial vs Bazaar) and chose git to replace their old CVS system. Drupal is a web server engine with thousands of modules developed by many contributors. A better case study would probably be something that has a hundred modules or less but nothing is coming immediately to mind.

[TheQwerty]

One of you must know what is best, as I have no experience with this.

At work I've used CVS and SVN .
At play I've lightly used both Mercurial (hg) and git .

What I've learned is there is no best...

XYplorer is a Windows product. Git on Windows is a bit behind the curve, compared to git on Linux. That being said, I have found github easy to work with and has some cool features. Anyone can fork from a repository and then merge changes into their fork from other forks. Etc. Plus, the popularity of github.... I probably don't even need to mention it.

Without going into details on the other options (unless you really want them?), I'm going to suggest we use GitHub because:

1. It provides what I consider must haves for a script:
   • Version control
   • Issue tracking
   • Wiki
2. They realized that git has an interface only a developer could love and have worked hard to clean that up. See http://windows.github.com/ & http://mobile.github.com/
3. Even if you prefer the git CLI it is pretty easy to use and get started.
4. It's popularity...
   1. Makes finding answers and getting help less difficult.
   2. Means there are many plugins and tools built for and around it.
   3. Improves the chances that it will be around in the future.
   4. Allows it to be useful as both a social and recruiting tool.
   5. May give XYplorer some increased exposure.

What should get into this repository initially, just ideas or existing code/scripts?

I think each "main" script should be put into its own repository - regardless of its completeness.

It would be up to whoever starts a script but I think the minute code is written it should be in a repository.

Ideas and wishes that are only text should remain somewhere else. Either, in this forum or if Don agrees to the changes I suggested a new "Scripting" sub-forum.

- what should be achieved?

A few of the many things I'd like to see:

1. A better way for users to find scripts.
2. A better way for developers to contribute to and maintain scripts, both their own and others.
3. Some guidelines and best practices:
   • So scripts have more of a common feel to them, like they all came from the same source; something similar to Python's PEP 8 - Style Guide
   • To lower the bar of entry for new scripters.
4. An enlightened unicorn.

- how could it be organized effectively?

Organized Chaos? I don't know if we'll ever have an answer to this, but that we're discussing it is an improvement.

- and who will be contributing?

Ideally anyone and everyone.

[j_c_hallgren]

Sourceforge might have been the best thing going a number of years ago, but I think it has already lost the battle.

From a non-coder user point of view, Sourceforge is the only repository site where I've looked for software...I was aware of github but had never found any appl's there...maybe it's different for scripts like this but that's just my experience.

Where ever it's done, hopefully it'll make it easier for a user to find a needed script or basis than searching this forum.

[drewkeller]

From a non-coder user point of view, Sourceforge is the only repository site where I've looked for software...I was aware of github but had never found any appl's there...maybe it's different for scripts like this but that's just my experience.

Yeah, lost in all the buttons, there's one for downloading a zip file. Most people would probably link to that button (or maybe the wiki) instead of sending you to the github page. With sourceforge, it's pretty in your face and you have to curse at a few pages before you can actually download.

[Filehero]

As long as the repository service does not require an google (or a similar world-wide data and profile leviathan) account I don't really mind.

Personally, I'm a former CVS-guy (I enjoyed every single class-name refactoring ), now I'm running SVN here - which I would continue to use for all work-in-progress stuff anyway.

I don't know much about all this Git-related stuff, but nevertheless before a decision is made we should specify some requirements the candidate must/should meet. For instance, can we "plug-in" standard continuous integration functionality such as code-checkers or formatters?


Cheers,
Filehero

[FluxTorpedoe]

From another non(professional)-coder point of view, the dual approach sounds sensible IMHO.

(...) I think the minute code is written it should be in a repository.
Ideas and wishes that are only text should remain somewhere else.

That is, as was suggested:
1. a repositery, user-friendly enough that it'd still be accessible to non-die-hard scripters,
2. and a distinct forum, acting as the front-end for all users. To keep things as clear and clean as possible, several subforums would be even better, e.g. one exclusively for the scripts themselves (each thread = a script, w/ links to the repository), one FAQ, one Discussion/Requests...
3. an electric sheep

Well, just my sqrt(2) cents