From the Beginning (a running review)

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Trasd
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Trasd » 26 Oct 2011 22:56

Jerry wrote:...you are not faced with UI makeovers all the time that force you into adapting to new ways of doing the same thing that worked just fine the old way -- think Microsoft Office. [Now sadly, it seems, Firefox has caught this crazy virus: I don't know what knuckleheads have gotten control over there at Mozilla, but this quick schedule of major releases they have started is a big mistake, IMO, particularly because of the compatibility catch up issues with add-ons. Consequently, I am still using 3.6x and will continue to delay upgrading for as long as possible --- just like I always do with Windows itself.]
Truer words have not been spoken!
Trasd

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A.C.C.

"I'll tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." J. M.

zer0
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by zer0 » 26 Oct 2011 23:08

Trasd wrote:
Jerry wrote:...you are not faced with UI makeovers all the time that force you into adapting to new ways of doing the same thing that worked just fine the old way -- think Microsoft Office. [Now sadly, it seems, Firefox has caught this crazy virus: I don't know what knuckleheads have gotten control over there at Mozilla, but this quick schedule of major releases they have started is a big mistake, IMO, particularly because of the compatibility catch up issues with add-ons. Consequently, I am still using 3.6x and will continue to delay upgrading for as long as possible --- just like I always do with Windows itself.]
Truer words have not been spoken!
Don't get me started. Either of you :P
Reporting a bug? Have a wish? Got a question? Use search - View roadmap - FAQs: Forum + XY site
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TheQwerty
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by TheQwerty » 27 Oct 2011 20:15

admin wrote:OTOH, what I would really like to see is a personal perspective on XY: "How I use XY, my most-used functions, my favorite setup, my best usage tricks." Nobody, incl. me, will use all functions available. Most users will probably do with 20 or 30% depending on their personal tasks, whether they are photographers, musicians, scientists, web designers, administrators, etc. Such reports could become bridges for future users.
THEN ADD SNIPPETS! :twisted:

Sorry Don, but if you really want us to share how we configure and use XY, then you need to make it easier!

admin
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by admin » 27 Oct 2011 20:48

TheQwerty wrote:
admin wrote:OTOH, what I would really like to see is a personal perspective on XY: "How I use XY, my most-used functions, my favorite setup, my best usage tricks." Nobody, incl. me, will use all functions available. Most users will probably do with 20 or 30% depending on their personal tasks, whether they are photographers, musicians, scientists, web designers, administrators, etc. Such reports could become bridges for future users.
THEN ADD SNIPPETS! :twisted:

Sorry Don, but if you really want us to share how we configure and use XY, then you need to make it easier!
Aah, snippets, you think too robotic here. I was more after sharing philosophies, perspectives, clever moves. Masters of the tool talking their secrets... And the true masters can tell us what they do with the time XYplorer helped them to save. It certainly cannot be yet more screen time...

Trasd
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Trasd » 04 Nov 2011 16:12

From the Beginning - Review (Continued)

Where'd I Go?
I apologize for my long absence! Due to bad health, and other real-life issues, I haven't been up to writing. I also have not had much motivation, though I have continued exploring XYplorer whenever time and energy permitted. To further compound matters, I have recently upgraded my editor. With the exception of my file manager, EditPad Pro is probably the program I spend more time in than any other (cheap plug - sorry Don, but I do the same for XYplorer <--see? LOL). Over the coming weeks, I will also be learning the changes Jan (the editor author) has made to his program in the last major version update.


Time and Tide
What, you may ask, have I been doing with XYplorer this time? Since my last review, I have wandered randomly exploring features that caught my attention. I have looked at:
  • The Set Home feature
  • The Lock Location feature
  • The Address Bar capabilities
  • Some of what the Information Panel offers
I must say, without reservation, that the Set Home and Lock Location features must be added to my feature suggestion list. If you are not currently exploiting them, check them out, you won't be sorry.


Impressed(ions)
I didn't expect half of what the Address Bar has to offer in the way of capabilities. Coming from a strong DOS background and cutting my file manager teeth on a well written TSR (I am referring to FC3, the DOS file manager that I discussed in my opening review), I must admit, that in Windows, I had completely given up on being able to directly and easily enter DOS-type commands anywhere but in a Command window. I am happy to report that with XYplorer's Address Bar features, not only can I do this, but much more can be accomplished with this invaluable tool (now that I've discovered it, it is indeed invaluable to me).

I am truly beginning to understand the depth of this program and the claims of other users advising me that after many years, they are still discovering, heretofore, unknown features.


Continuing Continued Review
As the Information Panel contains many tools, not least of all the Find Files feature, I will have to document my findings on a continuing bases.

Due to the fact that Don is in the mist of enhancing and expanding the Find Files capabilities, I will hold off on reporting on this until these changes are officially released. So far, though, I am more than happy with the performance. I also want to thank Don for quickly implementing the changes I suggested (found here).


The Dark Side
As Don fears "The Dark Side" of my reviews, I thought the title appropriate! This section is where I will document any inconveniences I find, or items I believe to be counterintuitive or inconsistent with the rest of XYplorer.

In today's review, I have only three items I would like to mention, none of them gross infractions:
  • Once the Information Panel is open, I have not been able to find a convenient way to dismiss it
  • In the Information Panel (again), with its default size, the Tool Tip balloons for the items on the bottom do not show (they are displayed below the bottom of the window)
  • Whenever I navigate away from the 'Search results' tab, then back to it, Find Files repeats the entire search - I have not been able to find a way to turn this off
(Continued)
Last edited by Trasd on 16 Nov 2011 12:44, edited 1 time in total.
Trasd

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A.C.C.

"I'll tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." J. M.

j_c_hallgren
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by j_c_hallgren » 04 Nov 2011 16:41

Trasd wrote:
  • Once the Information Panel is open, I have not been able to find a convenient way to dismiss it
  • In the Information Panel (again), with its default size, the Tool Tip balloons for the items on the bottom do not show (they are displayed below the bottom of the window)
  • Whenever I navigate away from the 'Search results' tab, then back to it, Find Files repeats the entire search - I have not been able to find a way to turn this off
1) There is a KS to show/hide the IP...Shift+F12 is what I've got (not sure if that's default) but i also have the half-dozen panel view option icons on my toolbar so I can show/hide IP, Nav panel, wide IP, min/max IP, etc.
2) Don't quite understand this.
3) Check out "cache search results" in Config>Find Files and see if that helps ya.
Still spending WAY TOO much time here! But it's such a pleasure helping XY be a treasure!
(XP on laptop with touchpad and thus NO mouse!) Using latest beta vers when possible.

nas8e9
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by nas8e9 » 04 Nov 2011 17:39

With regard to quickly showing and hiding the Info Panel, I'm partial to Configuration > Extended > Mouse > Click on status bar toggles info panel. This way, as the label promises, a single click on the status bar is all it takes.

Edited for spelling.
Last edited by nas8e9 on 04 Nov 2011 18:16, edited 2 times in total.

PeterH
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by PeterH » 04 Nov 2011 18:13

2nd point verified!

If XY is fullscreen or it's window ends near the lower border of the screen, the tooltip for "Attr." works, while the tips for "Cont:" and "Excl." are missing. Reason seems to be that they would touch or exceed the lower border of the (physical) screen.
W7(x64) SP1 German
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Jerry
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Jerry » 05 Nov 2011 03:39

nas8e9 wrote:With regard to quickly showing and hiding the Info Panel, I'm partial to Configuration > Extended > Mouse > Click on status bar toggles info panel. This way, as the label promises, a single click on the status bar is all it takes.
With one gripe: I'd prefer to see the status bar always stay fixed at the bottom of the overall XYplorer window, even when the info panel is displayed. It's nice to quickly click the status bar to show the info panel. But it's cumbersome to then have to move the mouse up to find the status bar to click it off. It's also inappropriate to have to look in a different place for status information. This is a UI flaw, in my opinion, and affects usability.
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

j_c_hallgren
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by j_c_hallgren » 05 Nov 2011 06:20

Jerry wrote: With one gripe: I'd prefer to see the status bar always stay fixed at the bottom of the overall XYplorer window, even when the info panel is displayed. It's nice to quickly click the status bar to show the info panel. But it's cumbersome to then have to move the mouse up to find the status bar to click it off. It's also inappropriate to have to look in a different place for status information. This is a UI flaw, in my opinion, and affects usability.
But remember that the status bar is is part of the list and thus is always at the bottom of the list which is the upper frame on the display while the IP is the lower frame so your request, while appearing practical, would mean the IP would then be inserted in the middle of the list which doesn't make sense.

Thus, since I agree that clicking on a moving status bar sometimes is inconvenient, I'd suggest you use the toolbar icon since they generally never move.
Still spending WAY TOO much time here! But it's such a pleasure helping XY be a treasure!
(XP on laptop with touchpad and thus NO mouse!) Using latest beta vers when possible.

Trasd
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Trasd » 05 Nov 2011 13:43

j_c_hallgren wrote:...I agree that clicking on a moving status bar sometimes is inconvenient, I'd suggest you use the toolbar icon since they generally never move.
Did I miss a feature somewhere? Why would you want to click on the status bar (except for the background job "check mark" icon, of course)?

As far as dismissing the Information Panel - I appreciate the suggestions and will certainly try them all (to see which I like best), but, even though there may be a work-around, remember, this is a review on first impressions. To me, it would make more sense and be much more intuitive to put a close box '[X]' to the right of the top tab row (just below the background job "check mark"). As JC pointed out, the Information Panel is a separate feature from the List Panel and therefore should have its own close control.

That's my story and I'm stick to it.
Trasd

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A.C.C.

"I'll tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." J. M.

Jerry
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Jerry » 05 Nov 2011 14:10

j_c_hallgren wrote:But remember that the status bar is is part of the list and thus is always at the bottom of the list which is the upper frame on the display while the IP is the lower frame so your request, while appearing practical, would mean the IP would then be inserted in the middle of the list which doesn't make sense.
I realize that's the standard argument for this behavior, but I would counter with the assertion that the Info Panel is functionally, an auxiliary component to the file list; it's basically a popup dialog that is temporarily docked in place. The other point is that the status bar is a conventional idiom in Windows applications and nearly everywhere else, always stays fixed to the bottom of the screen. Consistency in software applications, in my professional experience, is more important than strict logical correctness (and aesthetics), because inconsistent behaviors affect usability.
j_c_hallgren wrote: Thus, since I agree that clicking on a moving status bar sometimes is inconvenient, I'd suggest you use the toolbar icon since they generally never move.
I used to do that, but toggling info panel is one of those things that I do all the time, and the status bar clicking is more convenient - less movement of the mouse typically.
Trasd wrote:Why would you want to click on the status bar (except for the background job "check mark" icon, of course)?
Agreed, it's a rather unorthodox, hack of a feature and if there's any incontestable argument here, it's that this behavior should not be there in the first place. But since it is there, it happens to be quite handy because of the status bar's large clickable area and because toggling the info panel on/off is something I, at least, am doing all the time. But moving the status bar makes this feature even more outlandish. It is a violation of convention and just wrong, and I will defend that position to the end. :wink:
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

Trasd
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Trasd » 05 Nov 2011 16:13

Jerry wrote:I realize that's the standard argument for this behavior, but I would counter with the assertion that the Info Panel is functionally, an auxiliary component to the file list; it's basically a popup dialog that is temporarily docked in place. The other point is that the status bar is a conventional idiom in Windows applications and nearly everywhere else, always stays fixed to the bottom of the screen. Consistency in software applications, in my professional experience, is more important than strict logical correctness (and aesthetics), because inconsistent behaviors affect usability.
An argument could be made that the status bar belongs to the application itself, and not the List Panel - other panels just choose not to use or update it.

According to Microsoft's official Windows Development Center Status Bars Guidelines:
Microsoft wrote:A status bar is an area at the bottom of a primary window that displays information about the current window's state (such as what is being viewed and how), background tasks (such as printing, scanning, and formatting), or other contextual information (such as selection and keyboard state).

Status bars typically indicate status through text and icons, but they can also have progress indicators, as well as menus for commands and options related to status.
Jerry wrote:
Trasd wrote:Why would you want to click on the status bar (except for the background job "check mark" icon, of course)?
Agreed, it's a rather unorthodox, hack of a feature and if there's any incontestable argument here, it's that this behavior should not be there in the first place. But since it is there, it happens to be quite handy because of the status bar's large clickable area and because toggling the info panel on/off is something I, at least, am doing all the time. But moving the status bar makes this feature even more outlandish. It is a violation of convention and just wrong, and I will defend that position to the end. :wink:
I was actually asking why one would want to click on the status bar in the first place, but as my question must have not been clear, I dug around and found the "Click on status bar toggles info panel" option. Yes, it seems unorthodox, but I like it - though it would be better, IMHO, to have an icon next to the "check mark" devoted to this feature.
Trasd

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A.C.C.

"I'll tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." J. M.

nas8e9
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by nas8e9 » 05 Nov 2011 17:48

Trasd wrote:An argument could be made that the status bar belongs to the application itself, and not the List Panel - other panels just choose not to use or update it.

According to Microsoft's official Windows Development Center Status Bars Guidelines:
Microsoft wrote:A status bar is an area at the bottom of a primary window that displays information about the current window's state (such as what is being viewed and how), background tasks (such as printing, scanning, and formatting), or other contextual information (such as selection and keyboard state).

Status bars typically indicate status through text and icons, but they can also have progress indicators, as well as menus for commands and options related to status.
I agree with both the external (expectations derived from Windows and other apps) and internal (the status bar would always be in the same place) consistency argument, but find it difficult to feel the need for change here as I'm used to it.
Trasd wrote:
Jerry wrote:
Trasd wrote:Why would you want to click on the status bar (except for the background job "check mark" icon, of course)?
Agreed, it's a rather unorthodox, hack of a feature and if there's any incontestable argument here, it's that this behavior should not be there in the first place. But since it is there, it happens to be quite handy because of the status bar's large clickable area and because toggling the info panel on/off is something I, at least, am doing all the time. But moving the status bar makes this feature even more outlandish. It is a violation of convention and just wrong, and I will defend that position to the end. :wink:
I was actually asking why one would want to click on the status bar in the first place, but as my question must have not been clear, I dug around and found the "Click on status bar toggles info panel" option. Yes, it seems unorthodox, but I like it - though it would be better, IMHO, to have an icon next to the "check mark" devoted to this feature.
Sorry for not asking what you meant. I had posted the reference to the setting you mention, and thought you took issue with the function's idea in general.

As for having a dedicated button on the status bar for toggling (formally, the IP is never closed but rather hidden from view) the IP, the advantage would be the discoverability as well as - assuming the need for a button - being nearer to the IP than a toolbar button. The disadvantage is that it would make a much smaller target. (The button for the Background Jobs-window is probably much less used than an IP-toggle would be, making it's small size less of an issue.)

Again (and rather uselessly), I'm not unhappy with the current arrangement. 8)

Trasd
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Re: From the Beginning (a running review)

Post by Trasd » 05 Nov 2011 21:23

nas8e9 wrote:Sorry for not asking what you meant. I had posted the reference to the setting you mention, and thought you took issue with the function's idea in general.
No, that would be my fault - I haven't had time to look at, or try, the suggestions yet.

EDITED (added)
nas8e9 wrote: find it difficult to feel the need for change here as I'm used to it.
I somewhat agree with this as well, I'm not sure the situation merits a major change in the code.
nas8e9 wrote:...assuming the need for a button - being nearer to the IP than a toolbar button. The disadvantage is that it would make a much smaller target.
True, but if the button were added and the "Click on status bar toggles info panel" option was still available, the button would be a good indicator and more consistent with GUIs, until the user got to know the program better. It could be an addition, not a replacement.
Trasd

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." A.C.C.

"I'll tell you this, no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn." J. M.

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