Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

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Mesh
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by Mesh » 23 Aug 2012 10:05

I don't need XY to be 64 bit for performance. It's next to useless, performance-wise.

What I need is for XY to be able to see the same locations as Windows Explorer (not just 64-bit system directories, but also devices), and to be able to see the full range of context menu items.

If Don can figure out how to make XY do that while keeping it 32-bit, I will be perfectly satisfied.

TheQwerty
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by TheQwerty » 23 Aug 2012 14:16

To be honest between Window 8's new Metro Modern UI style and Microsoft's adoption of ARM for mobile in Windows RT, I suspect Don might be better served by starting with a clean slate than attempting to drag the current code base to an x64 compiler (assuming it ever comes).

But that's just my opinion. :shrugs:

Mesh
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by Mesh » 23 Aug 2012 16:11

TheQwerty wrote:To be honest between Window 8's new Metro Modern UI style and Microsoft's adoption of ARM for mobile in Windows RT, I suspect Don might be better served by starting with a clean slate than attempting to drag the current code base to an x64 compiler (assuming it ever comes).

But that's just my opinion. :shrugs:

Personally, I can't stand Metro and wish it a painful death. But that's just me. I would prefer if Don *didn't* match that style. :)

m48tx
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by m48tx » 23 Aug 2012 16:28

I see no real benefit to a 64-bit application at this point (even MS recommends installing the 32-bit version of Office, unless you need to open insanely large files, due to the fact the majority of plugins are 32-bit only). I run Win7 64-bit but most installed apps are 32-bit. The only issue I have is with right-click context menus when using file manager apps (I have XYplorer and 64-bit Directory Opus installed). Some apps install only the context entries based on the bit version of Windows (MS Security Essentials for example), some 32-bit apps have been modified to install both 32-bit and 64-bit context entries (Adobe Acrobat and latest version of UltraEdit for example). Sometimes, it is possible to install both the 32-bit and 64-bit version of a program to solve the context problem (Bulk Rename and K-Lite Codecs for example).

What would be the benefit of porting XYplorer to 64-bit? For sure we'd gain the 64-bit only context entries but we'd lose the 32-bit only context entries. The issue is not with XYplorer, but with the apps we have installed that create context menu entries. Until every single app and plug-in is ported to 64-bit or every app installs both 32-bit and 64-bit context entries, this issue will exist.

Just my humble opinion.
Gary

m48tx
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by m48tx » 23 Aug 2012 16:33

Mesh wrote:
TheQwerty wrote:To be honest between Window 8's new Metro Modern UI style and Microsoft's adoption of ARM for mobile in Windows RT, I suspect Don might be better served by starting with a clean slate than attempting to drag the current code base to an x64 compiler (assuming it ever comes).

But that's just my opinion. :shrugs:

Personally, I can't stand Metro and wish it a painful death. But that's just me. I would prefer if Don *didn't* match that style. :)

I could not agree more. Windows 8 absolutely sucks. WTF is MS thinking? Taking the beautiful GUI of Win7 to the cartoon like GUI of Metro. Modern? Seriously? And where is the start button???

Don, stay away from anything resembling Metro. Please.

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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by admin » 23 Aug 2012 16:56

To get the money of the masses you need to go tablet / touch screen nowadays. Metro is going there. The post-metro Windows will work only in smart phones.

But AFAIK there are still people who use/need computers for "real work" (as opposed to multimedia, games, and phone calls). Quite interesting IMO what will happen now. Nobody can forbid Microsoft to go where the money is. Will they leave the digital working class behind? Will us power users be stuck with XP and Win7 forever? Well, I would not mind since that would mean eternal demand for XY. :mrgreen:
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Mesh
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by Mesh » 23 Aug 2012 17:11

Metro is Microsoft's latest "Windows ME". It's seeing a lot of disfavor, and businesses are ignoring it almost completely. I think Microsoft is going to see some harsh reactions and end up making some severe corrections - as is their history.

I wouldn't bet too hard on Metro at the moment. So let's just sweep that out of the way.

Context menu items and full compatability with the file system - that's the focus! :)

TheQwerty
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by TheQwerty » 23 Aug 2012 17:11

Mesh wrote:Personally, I can't stand Metro and wish it a painful death. But that's just me. I would prefer if Don *didn't* match that style. :)
I haven't used Windows 8 enough to comment either way. Note I'm not advocating that Don adopt the full Metro style, but I do think XY could benefit from a styling refresh and more simple default interface.

Personally, I view 8 as a bit like Vista, and expect Microsoft will be quick to get 9 out to improve the mess they've made of the desktop experience.

What concerns me is with 7 Microsoft seemed to have locked onto an overall picture of where they were taking Windows and they were steering developers in that direction - showing them how to update existing apps. But here we are 2 years later as developers are just starting to buy into that vision and Windows 8 completely changes it and Microsoft doesn't seem as interested in helping developers update or sharing that big picture. Even more so when you factor in Windows RT and the Surface.


Which seems to completely screw developers since 7 is likely to be the next XP with regards to long-term adoption, and it appears rather difficult to maintain a single good-looking app in both the 7 and 8 styles.


Though what do I know, I've made the jump to OS X at home. :oops:

EDIT:
Mesh wrote:Metro is Microsoft's latest "Windows ME". It's seeing a lot of disfavor, and businesses are ignoring it almost completely. I think Microsoft is going to see some harsh reactions and end up making some severe corrections - as is their history.
I'm not so sure they'll back away from the Metro style anywhere near as quickly as they dropped the Metro name. The style turns their brand into more of an all-the-rage ecosystem. Metro unifies the appearance of their computer, tablet, phone, and XBox offerings, and I don't see them stepping away from that without some tweaking and force.

Filehero
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by Filehero » 23 Aug 2012 22:24

Well,

there's not much doubt that the Windows 8 implementation of the first workhorsePC-meets-Tablet approach - reasonably - appears to be a bit hazardous.

I really enjoy the power of my workhorse (I'm currently entering this post on) to mangle pictures in Lightroom or "music" in Cubase. On the other hand, there's hardly anything better than reading http://www.xyplorer.com/xyfc/index.php on the balcony on a lazy summer night, or in the bed after a crazy day in office - or in the rest room after the very first coffee in the morning on my iPad.

However, marrying different ecosystems still does not work in 2012 (haven't mentioned my mobile phone os - Bada - yet..), and I'm afraid it won't in the future.

In this light I'm really looking forward trying Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 in cooperation. F*** Metro, I won't need it for quite some time. But I'm keen to see the upcoming x86 "surface" tablets offering both usage scenarios working flawlessly in concert with a WP8-phone. Having all my needs available during holidays is a promise worh to wait for.

If it turns out working, for sure, I would happily pay the price of an optional tile-screen.


Cheers,
Filehero

PeterH
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by PeterH » 23 Aug 2012 22:55

m48tx wrote:What would be the benefit of porting XYplorer to 64-bit? For sure we'd gain the 64-bit only context entries but we'd lose the 32-bit only context entries. The issue is not with XYplorer, but with the apps we have installed that create context menu entries. Until every single app and plug-in is ported to 64-bit or every app installs both 32-bit and 64-bit context entries, this issue will exist.
I'm afraid the issue isn't with XYplorer, and it isn't with the apps! It's with windows!

windows supplies a system being able to run both 32 and 64 bit apps. But it misses services to "integrate" them - for example making it unneccessary to distinguish between 32 and 64 bit context entries.

Sorry: that's the way I see it.

And sorry: that's the world XY must deal with.
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by admin » 24 Aug 2012 08:19

PeterH wrote:windows supplies a system being able to run both 32 and 64 bit apps. But it misses services to "integrate" them - for example making it unneccessary to distinguish between 32 and 64 bit context entries.
Yes, I'm wondering about this as well. They provided WOW64, it should not be much harder to provide a way to get 64-bit context entries into 32-bit menus. I don't think it's impossible but rather that for some reason they did not want to allow that. Maybe they thought it better to keep the two bit worlds apart?
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Jibz
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by Jibz » 24 Aug 2012 14:06

As I understood it, it is because shell extensions are dll files which are loaded into the process space of your application, which means they have to be compiled to run in the same mode. The CPU can switch between 32- and 64-bit mode, but not within the same process.

FeatureCreep
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by FeatureCreep » 24 Aug 2012 16:03

admin wrote:To get the money of the masses you need to go tablet / touch screen nowadays. Metro is going there. The post-metro Windows will work only in smart phones.

But AFAIK there are still people who use/need computers for "real work" (as opposed to multimedia, games, and phone calls). Quite interesting IMO what will happen now. Nobody can forbid Microsoft to go where the money is. Will they leave the digital working class behind? Will us power users be stuck with XP and Win7 forever? Well, I would not mind since that would mean eternal demand for XY. :mrgreen:
I think the computer market is splitting into four groups.
1. Systems for power users and people who have to do complex work (spreadsheets, creating media content etc.), typically mouse and keyboard driven by people sitting at a desk -"the digital working class".
2. Touch screens and stuff like Metro for doing light work (emails, short text documents etc.), viewing media and playing games: typically by people on the move or lounging on a sofa -managers and loafers.
3. Cloud based computing.
4. Non-cloud based computing.

2 and 3 go together.
1 and 4 do not necessarily go together. But I think that people using big resource hungry apps on files with hundreds of man hours invested in them are more likely to keep them on their hard drives. Security is another issue.

Many people will probably end up as members of all groups i.e. continue working with files on the hard drive of a desktop computer on XP/Win 7 type systems AND use cloud based tablets when on the move or at home.

Microsoft may be making a mistake by attempting to create a one-size-fits-all system. In any case, a market will develop for apps/add-ons/tweaks to "fix" Windows (putting back omitted features and functionality), as has happened with every release. People will not stay with XP and Win 7 indefinitely.

I think it would be a mistake for XY to attempt to satisfy everybody. Stay focused on your core market Don -groups 1 and 4.

--------------

As for 64-bit, please don't take this the wrong way. But I see no signs online of a VB compiler on the horizon. The compatability issues are only going to multiply. And lamenting Microsoft's behaviour doesn't help any.

Thousands of VB programmers invested much time and effort in a language that MS no longer supports. That was unfortunate, but it was a business decision mostly affecting VB devs not the bulk of end users.

There is a danger that you could end up doing to your users what Microsoft did to you.

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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by admin » 24 Aug 2012 17:07

FeatureCreep wrote:I think it would be a mistake for XY to attempt to satisfy everybody. Stay focused on your core market Don -groups 1 and 4.
I never planned to do that mistake. I think TC is currently moving to the phone side of the moon, DO is deeper and deeper in its Mac-like DO-sphere, so somebody has to stay here where the work is done. :)

FeatureCreep wrote:As for 64-bit, please don't take this the wrong way. But I see no signs online of a VB compiler on the horizon. ...

There is a danger that you could end up doing to your users what Microsoft did to you.
Well, I have signs. I'm actually talking with the guys that write the thing. But they are not as fast as planned.

No, no, XY will always be the solution, not the problem. (cheers to mc5)
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40k
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Re: Is there a firm ETA on 64 bit?

Post by 40k » 24 Aug 2012 19:38

Tried a Windows 8 build one month ago. It lasted longer than my first install of GNOME 3.0 but it didn't live long enough to see the end of the day.

I successfully managed to dodge Vista by sticking to XP. I think my Windows 7 install will be with me for some years to come too.
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