Custom Move

Features wanted...
eil
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Re: Custom Move

Post by eil » 19 Oct 2011 00:27

i'm so excited.. so excited.. but damn, curse you Don! :twisted: you always said No when i proposed to expand XY functionality for mouse-only(one handed)!.
still tried it and it works. but i have lots of questions :!: :

of course it's for you to decide, but why not make it a double-side-toggle = Custom Copy <> Shell Copy, Shell Copy <> Custom Copy ? same as in situation when only some files wished to be processed by Shell Copy, and all the others by CC, there happen situations, when needed to switch to Shell Copy for speed(to fast drag and drop and copy lots of small files), but use CC for safe coping of big files with report.
TheQwerty wrote:Any reason this toggle isn't (or won't be) also available as a command in CKS?
Personally, I believe almost everything that can be triggered in XY should be available in CKS.
i'm kinda interested in this too, for 2 reasons: in this situation i consider CSK to be faster; me personally, never did well with gestures =always forgot them, or became irritated for spontaneous work/not-work(mostly it was me and my "being too busy" actions, but still).
by the way, i don't think such toggle could be considered "according to Windows standards", so see nothing wrong giving it a CSK :P

i should really praise you for such an approach in development 'cause it's really new to XY :) but did you took in account all "accompanies to come"? i mean there surely appear someone asking for customization of each function and of gesture itself.. :roll:

still i really congratulate you with this!(did it seemed to me, or you are truly excited with introducing this? :D ). and yet once more "we're wondering somewhere around" CEA :oops:

admin
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Re: Custom Move

Post by admin » 19 Oct 2011 08:31

TheQwerty wrote:Any reason this toggle isn't (or won't be) also available as a command in CKS?
Personally, I believe almost everything that can be triggered in XY should be available in CKS.
Almost everything. :)

This is a self-resetting toggle with no other state display than a status bar message. When triggered by CKS and then not used (you decide not to perform the planned file operation) you will forget about the state of the toggle, and there is no mechanism to self-reset it.

Or are you saying that the settings/buttons "Enable Background Processing" and "Use Custom Copy" should also have CKSs?

eil
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Re: Custom Move

Post by eil » 19 Oct 2011 09:01

admin wrote:When triggered by CKS and then not used (you decide not to perform the planned file operation) you will forget about the state of the toggle, and there is no mechanism to self-reset it.
what's the problem with that? - doesn't it apply only for current operation?!(and back to normal then) besides, if one would use CSK and then wish to not use it, it may be set that next normal operation shortcut(like Ctrl+C after Shift+Ctrl+C of this feature) would be at the same time a reset/switch off for the toggle :wink:

admin
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Re: Custom Move

Post by admin » 19 Oct 2011 09:50

eil wrote:
admin wrote:When triggered by CKS and then not used (you decide not to perform the planned file operation) you will forget about the state of the toggle, and there is no mechanism to self-reset it.
what's the problem with that? - doesn't it apply only for current operation?!(and back to normal then) besides, if one would use CSK and then wish to not use it, it may be set that next normal operation shortcut(like Ctrl+C after Shift+Ctrl+C of this feature) would be at the same time a reset/switch off for the toggle :wink:
There is no current operation when you toggle by CKS. There is only a next operation. When is that next operation? In 2 seconds or tomorrow?

What I could do is a Miscellaneous KS that toggles BOTH Custom Copy AND Backgrounding parallely. But it will turn a mixed state (say you have Custom Copy ON but Backgrounding OFF) into a parallel state: both ON or OFF (with the additional question which state should follow a mixed state, both ON or both OFF). You seem there are a couple of problems lurking here...

eil
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Re: Custom Move

Post by eil » 19 Oct 2011 11:35

admin wrote:There is no current operation when you toggle by CKS. There is only a next operation. When is that next operation? In 2 seconds or tomorrow?
i need to clarify my understanding: i select file A and push Ctrl+X, then i decide not to move it, select file B and Ctrl+C(with eventual Ctrl+V to follow) - doesn't Ctrl+X is that "next operation"? didn't it was discarded/passed away when Ctrl+C was used?(which i presume to be "after-next operation")
admin wrote:What I could do is a Miscellaneous KS that toggles BOTH Custom Copy AND Backgrounding parallely.
it seems i'm missing something again(or simply don't know the way it works) - why touch Backgrounding at all :?: right now i have CC and Backgrounding both enabled. when i need to use Shell Copy, i just switch CC off(not touching tick of Backgrounding! -meant it stays on but for nothing 'cause no CC usage) = and it works fine :|

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Re: Custom Move

Post by admin » 19 Oct 2011 11:40

Sorry, but no time for further explanations. :( Believe me, it's like I say. :)

TheQwerty
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Re: Custom Move

Post by TheQwerty » 19 Oct 2011 12:56

admin wrote:This is a self-resetting toggle with no other state display than a status bar message. When triggered by CKS and then not used (you decide not to perform the planned file operation) you will forget about the state of the toggle, and there is no mechanism to self-reset it.

Or are you saying that the settings/buttons "Enable Background Processing" and "Use Custom Copy" should also have CKSs?
Right, I agree it doesn't make sense to implement the temporary gesture as a CKS I was indeed talking about the items from the toolbar buttons/settings.

Pretty much everything that's a check box in configuration should have a CKS command in my mind.

EDIT: Or be available via scripting. My end goal would be that (almost) any command could be accessed via keyboard shortcut and scripting.

Luckily, as long as it's accessible via one then advanced users can get the other, but clearly CKS is better since it makes it easier for newer users, as well as advanced ones.

Jerry
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Re: Custom Move

Post by Jerry » 19 Oct 2011 18:42

I view mouse gestures as user candy that's nice to have for some procedures, but they should always be an additional alternative to something that can otherwise be performed via the more customary mechanisms - menu, toolbar, scripting and CKS (ie. CKS including mouse/key shortcuts). So while I can use the new "elliptical" gesture for temporarily overriding custom copy/move & bg processing, I would still prefer just holding down the Shift key while mouse dragging, coupled with status bar notification.

EDIT (10/20): Another point: Especially with gestures, the specific gesture motion bound to any function really needs to be user-customizable because one person's convenience can too easily be another's frustration. For example, I've been using the new elliptical custom move/bg override feature for a couple of days now and it still takes me several tries to get it right each time. For me, a simple right-left-right swipe of the mouse is far more preferable. I use several different custom gestures in Firefox (a more appropriate application for this kind of thing, IMO) and they are all just simple combinations of right/left/up/down, which is not only easy to specify and perform but allows for many different variations.
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

admin
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Re: Custom Move

Post by admin » 24 Oct 2011 08:49

Jerry wrote:I view mouse gestures as user candy that's nice to have for some procedures, but they should always be an additional alternative to something that can otherwise be performed via the more customary mechanisms - menu, toolbar, scripting and CKS (ie. CKS including mouse/key shortcuts). So while I can use the new "elliptical" gesture for temporarily overriding custom copy/move & bg processing, I would still prefer just holding down the Shift key while mouse dragging, coupled with status bar notification.

EDIT (10/20): Another point: Especially with gestures, the specific gesture motion bound to any function really needs to be user-customizable because one person's convenience can too easily be another's frustration. For example, I've been using the new elliptical custom move/bg override feature for a couple of days now and it still takes me several tries to get it right each time. For me, a simple right-left-right swipe of the mouse is far more preferable. I use several different custom gestures in Firefox (a more appropriate application for this kind of thing, IMO) and they are all just simple combinations of right/left/up/down, which is not only easy to specify and perform but allows for many different variations.
The gesture is just a little experiment. I'll leave it there for now and wait for further user response in the next months.

Jerry
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Re: Custom Move

Post by Jerry » 24 Oct 2011 16:11

The gesture is just a little experiment. I'll leave it there for now and wait for further user response in the next months.
I do see that you changed it in the 10.40.0112 beta, and I thank you very much for that; the straight back and forth is a marked improvement over the ellipse -- much easier to successfully execute.
v10.40.0112 - 2011-10-24 10:36
* List | Gesture: Refined the detection. Now the gesture does not
have to be a continuous motion without any stops anymore: A mouse
halt of up to 250 ms does not count as a stop.
This means that the gesture to toggle shell/foreground mode for
the current file operation does not have to be an non-stop ellipse
anymore, but can be a 45° back and forth (up/left, and back to the
start) motion.
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

Jerry
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Re: Custom Move

Post by Jerry » 09 Nov 2011 13:59

A problem with the mouse gesture for overriding custom move: When I have just a few items in the list, typically from a visual filter, I can't get the gesture to work at all. Perhaps because with the items close to the top of the list, the gesture has to move out of the list area to complete but the movement outside isn't being captured? [ A horizontally constrained gesture would avoid this problem, as would, of course, just a keyboard modifier. ]
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

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Re: Custom Move

Post by admin » 09 Nov 2011 16:24

Simple: You move the mouse down as needed, then wait for > 250 msecs, then do your gesture.

Jerry
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Re: Custom Move

Post by Jerry » 09 Nov 2011 17:24

admin wrote:Simple: You move the mouse down as needed, then wait for > 250 msecs, then do your gesture.
Cannot get it to work. Just to be clear: Try to do it on the first or second item at the very top of the list, with the list fully scrolled to the top. And do you wait for 250msec with the right mouse button down or not? Either way, I can't get it to work at all.
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

Borut
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Re: Custom Move

Post by Borut » 09 Nov 2011 17:59

Try this:
1. Leftklick your object and hold the left mouse button depressed constantly from now on
2. Move down to the middle of the screen (preferably to some easily noticable spot)
3. Wait at this spot >250ms
4. Quite slowly make a move towards NorthWest
5. Quite slowly make a back move to the remembered screen spot
At this point the status bar should inform you about the new interpretation of subsequent operation (happens so at my place).
6. Proceed with a movement to your final destination.
Win 7 Pro 64bit

Jerry
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Re: Custom Move

Post by Jerry » 09 Nov 2011 18:07

Borut wrote:Try this:
1. Leftklick your object and hold the left mouse button depressed constantly from now on
2. Move down to the middle of the screen (preferably to some easily noticable spot)
3. Wait at this spot >250ms
4. Quite slowly make a move towards NorthWest
5. Quite slowly make a back move to the remembered screen spot
At this point the status bar should inform you about the new interpretation of subsequent operation (happens so at my place).
6. Proceed with a movement to your final destination.
Ok, that works. I see now that's what you meant by "move the mouse down as needed" in your earlier reply. Thanks.

EDIT (11/10/2011): I have to add a gripe here, though: This means that one has to effectively use a different gesture depending on the absolute location of the entry in the list. Too close to the absolute top of the list and the gesture is Down-Wait-UpToTheRight-DownToTheLeft whereas elsewhere it is just UpToTheRight-DownToTheLeft. Clearly, doesn't this inconsistency as well as all the correspondence so far around it, highlight how inappropriate this particular gesture is for this action? A much easier failproof alternative is simply RIGHT-LEFT. But the best policy, as I stated before, is that user gestures must always be user customizable to be useful, and must always be just a sugary alternative to more conventional shortcuts.
Running on Windows 10 Pro 64-bit quad-core ASUS G752-VY notebook with 64 GB RAM, 20 or more external USB3 drives attached via 4 powered hubs, totaling 50+ TB.

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