F2 Renaming behavior

Features wanted...
zridling
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F2 Renaming behavior

Post by zridling »

The F2 command will let me rename the entire filename perfectly. However, when I want to rename part of the filename, tweaking either the beginning or ending of the name, I wish XYplorer would set the insertion point before the extension and at the end of the filename when hitting the right arrow key; and conversely, set the insertion point at the beginning of the filename when hitting the left arrow key. Of course, the same behavior should work in the Copy Here As dialog. Below is a visual illustration.

Select the file
Image

Press F2. If I want rename the entire file, I can do that here
Image

Hit the right arrow, and now I'm set to rename the extension, which is very rare, if ever
Image

Better, would be for the insertion point to land here after hitting the right arrow, at the end of the filename, before the extension
Image

Then, I could rename the last part of the file with ease
Image

Hitting the left arrow key could jump the insertion point to the beginning of the file (immediately after pressing F2)
Image

Where I could then tweak the front part of the filename easily
Image
Last edited by zridling on 26 Dec 2006 11:34, edited 1 time in total.
- Zaine Ridling, The Great Software blog

j_c_hallgren
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Post by j_c_hallgren »

So if I read it correctly, your desired behavior would mean that in order to change the last char(s) of name portion, one would have to use right arrow followed by left arrow(s)? Seems a bit odd....however, being able to quickly get to first char of name is something that I don't know if it is currently possible...and might offset the oddity in practical usage.

Your example presumes that one has the "exclude extension on rename" set in Config...how would you desire it work when that is not set?
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zridling
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Post by zridling »

No, that's how it works now, and it seems unnecessary. Try it. When you hit F2 and then the right arrow, you're into the extension. How many times do you rename an extension — rarely, right? Better that when you press the right arrow, it puts the insertion point at the end of the filename, to the left of the .dot. extension. Then you're free to tweak the end of the name.

If done the way I'm describing, it's very handy.
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j_c_hallgren
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Post by j_c_hallgren »

zridling wrote:No, that's how it works now, and it seems unnecessary. Try it. When you hit F2 and then the right arrow, you're into the extension. How many times do you rename an extension — rarely, right? Better that when you press the right arrow, it puts the insertion point at the end of the filename, to the left of the .dot. extension. Then you're free to tweak the end of the name.

If done the way I'm describing, it's very handy.
I find the current setup works quite well for me! I'll agree that I don't rename extensions that often...so being able to start rename positioned at rightmost of filename reduces overhead of having to back up thru the extension and dot....plus gives me the flexability to go in either direction, should I want to rename extension...

My query was in regards to how you'd handle the very first left-arrow after a F2...like going to leftmost/first pos of filename? In that case, how would you 'back up' to change the LAST pos of filename? That's why I said one might have to go right once to disable the jump to your desired leftmost/first...follow me?

And any comments on when that config opt is set the other way?
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zridling
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Post by zridling »

My query was in regards to how you'd handle the very first left-arrow after a F2...like going to leftmost/first pos of filename? In that case, how would you 'back up' to change the LAST pos of filename? That's why I said one might have to go right once to disable the jump to your desired leftmost/first...follow me?
My wish is to skip having to always backup when tweaking a filename. Right now, you have to do two moves: RIGHT arrow to break the highlight, and then LEFT arrow to move back from the extension to the filename. If I want to rename the filename, that's what I want to do primarily, as rarely do I ever rename an extension.

As for your question quoted above, I think I understand, but please correct me if I'm wrong (although describing makes it difficult to visualize). As stated in the original post with the png, if I hit the LEFT arrow, I'd want it to move to the beginning of the filename. If I hit the RIGHT, then to the right, before the .dot.extension.

But I'm confused over what you mean by "back up to change the last position of the filename." How about both CTRL+RIGHT and END to get back to the right of the filename (before the extension)? And if you want to then go to the very end of the extension (assuming the Exclude Extension on rename in Options > Advanced is checked), then merely hit END twice.
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avsfan
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Post by avsfan »

zridling wrote:if I hit the LEFT arrow, I'd want it to move to the beginning of the filename. If I hit the RIGHT, then to the right, before the .dot.extension.
I think Zaine has a great idea here -- this seems like an excellent approach (as I also have been annoyed by the "Hit RIGHT to clear the highlight, then LEFT to get back to the end of the filename").

His other idea about using CTRL-RIGHT and END to skip first to the end of the filename, and then to the end of the extension (also similarly for CTRL-LEFT and HOME) is quite interesting.

In fact, I think I'd vote for CTRL-RIGHT to work as above (in fact, moving just before the next "." in the filename, such as if a filename contained multiple periods then CTRL-RIGHT would move the cursor just before the next one, or to the end if no "next" period was present), and END would *always* go to the very end of the extension. Similarly, CTRL-LEFT would move the cursor to just before (i.e. to the left of) the previous "." (if present -- otherwise to the beginning of the filename), and HOME would always go the the beginning of the filename.

Does this make sense?

Thanks for listening!

andy

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Post by j_c_hallgren »

Ok, this may not help fully, but let's consider what Win Expl does when one hits F2, and thus how many folks are used to it working:

It puts pointer after entire name, so the first usage of a left arrow gets one positioned between last two chars of extension...now IF in XY using a left arrow would cause position to go to extreme left, that would be quite unexpected, IMHO...and as Cntl+Left (and Home) gets one at leftmost, having Left do same seems impractical, ok?

Just wondering: What is the most common type of rename that you do to filenames? Change trailing chars to others -or- adding new chars (such as "upd") -or- removing trailing chars? I tend to do more adding/removing than actual convert/changing so that may affect my ideas...
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zridling
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Post by zridling »

JC, I think you're overcomplicating a very simple idea. Most of the renaming I do — I admit — is tweaking the last part of the file name, and as you describe, to add or remove portions of the trailing characters. It may be something as simple as:

steluna-buro.csv
to
steluna-buro01.csv
or
buro_steluna-01.csv

I just want to be lazy and save another keystroke; that is, get on with the renaming rather than the repeated RIGHT/LEFT arrowing. Using the LEFT arrow once to jump to the beginning of the filename immediately after hitting F2 is just efficient renaming navigation. If I need to go less than halfway Left, then I can always hit the RIGHT arrow, and then arrow one character to the left until I'm where I need to be.

Essentially, if I can hit F2, followed by the RIGHT arrow, and then start renaming, I just saved a keystroke. That keystroke doesn't sound like much. But multiply it over a 15-hour day, over a month, over a year. After a while, it adds up. I should probably load some screencast software and demonstrate it in a video. :lol:
- Zaine Ridling, The Great Software blog

RalphM
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Post by RalphM »

It seems the problem only occurs when "Exclude extension on rename" is on, 'cos the reight arrow then moves the cursor one char to the right from the current selection. So the problem would be solved if the first right arrow just places the cursor at the rightmost end of the selection.
But then I would expect the first left arrow doing the same in case the selection doesn't include the leftmost char of the filename.
To the contrary, Home and End should always disregard the current selection.
Just my 2 cts.
Ralph :-)
(OS: W10 20H2 Home x64 - XY: Current beta - Office 2019 32-bit)

j_c_hallgren
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Post by j_c_hallgren »

zridling wrote:JC, I think you're overcomplicating a very simple idea.
-----
Using the LEFT arrow once to jump to the beginning of the filename immediately after hitting F2 is just efficient renaming navigation.
-----
Essentially, if I can hit F2, followed by the RIGHT arrow, and then start renaming, I just saved a keystroke.
1) I don't believe I'm overcomplicating it...just somewhat fighting for the user who expects the left arrow behavior to match Win Expl! Ok, so we all know WE's not that great...but...it's the most commonly known behavior...

2) Why affect plain LEFT when CNTL+LEFT or HOME both already do that function? That's my main problem with this idea...it removes the ability to use the first 'left' just to back up to between last two chars...

3) How bout this tweak on it, then? If we want to minimize finger motion, and keep usage to just the arrow keys, have the UP arrow do same as HOME, and the DOWN arrow make the insert point where it is, typically just before the "." for extension...right now, UP is same as LEFT and DOWN is same as RIGHT...I don't think many folks tend to use UP/DOWN when in a rename process, so altering these might allow quicker positioning while not affecting common "expected" behavior...

Update: :oops: I just realized that CNTL+LEFT doesn't always move to leftmost/first pos of filename...just to beginning of prior word...many of my filenames do NOT have spaces in them, so when I was trying out various key combo's, I didn't encounter this...oh well!
But HOME does move to extreme leftmost pos...so UP could do also...
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JustinF
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Re: F2 Renaming behavior

Post by JustinF »

zridling wrote:Better, would be for the insertion point to land here after hitting the right arrow, at the end of the filename, before the extension
Image
I agree with this wish 100%. I suggested it a while back, but got shot down. :cry:
Justin
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zridling
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Post by zridling »

Thanks for the forum link Justin. That was 18 months ago. Wonder if Don will reconsider it? Perhaps it could be an option, so that folks like JC could keep it the old way. He did mention this: A possibility would be: have no selection after F2 but just position the cursor left of the dot. (I'd go for that at least!)

________________________________________________
JC, I'm not sure why you enjoy all the extra arrow work? I can't explain it any clearer. I've given every reason I can think of. If you want any more explanations, I'll ask that you peruse everything I've written so far.

(1) The whole point of XYplorer is to improve on Windows Explorer, I presume. Otherwise, why bother building it? Removing that extra keystroke would save me a small PITA thousands of times a year, therefore it's my wish to navigate renaming more efficiently;

(2) How often do you rename a file 2-3 characters in from the right? Do you do it most, some, or rarely? Presumably very rarely.

(3) I like the UP/DOWN to get to the beginning and end, but right now they don't work that way, and worse, it's inefficient — I've got to unnecessarily move my hand away from the arrows and up to the HOME/END keys. Either still bumps you left or right one character after releasing F2, and END takes you all the way to the end of the extension.
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Post by j_c_hallgren »

zridling, I'm sure there can be found a solution that works fine for both of us! And I'll also agree that having a way to avoid the extra keystoke would be a handy improvement! :wink:

The thing that I remain unconvinced on is: altering what is one of the more commonly used (standard) arrow functions...especially the left arrow...improving something in XY that may cause problems for new or other users is to be avoided, agreed?

And yes, the most typical part of a filename that I alter actually is the last few chars, (prior to the extension), and often is the last 2 or 3.

If you read my post again, what I suggested was not the Page UP/DN keys (which would definitely be inefficient movement), but instead the UP & DOWN arrow keys...they require no real extra hand movement compared to left/right arrows, and no extra keystrokes, yet easily could be used to provide the functions you requested in original post as replacements for left/right, while retaining those for compatibility.

So you would thus use F2 followed by Down Arrow to put pointer before dot, or F2 followed by Up Arrow to get to leftmost char of full name...quick and easy...no extra keystrokes, and I really doubt anyone would be mucked up by the change, as using those directions would be unusual for a horizontal only situation, such as a filename.

Also, not selecting the filename after F2 also would cause compatibility issues...and I, on occasion, use that selection to completely rename the filename while leaving the extension untouched.
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zridling
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Post by zridling »

I don't expect Don to implement it, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I see your points, and as a latecomer to XYplorer, I'm grateful for all the care you've taken over the years to help improve it. (However, where did you get anything about PageUP/PageDN from? All I mentioned was UP/DOWN and HOME/END.)
- Zaine Ridling, The Great Software blog

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Post by jacky »

...well, I for one also have to right+left to get the selection gone when I need to, and find that quite annoying aswell.

I understand what jc & Don in another post said, about this being the "normal" behavior pretty much everywhere ; Yet I agree that it is not the best, and I think it might be a good idea to change it.

I mean, the "normal" behavior for any Tree in Windows is to have the Desktop on top, then MyComputer, and then the drives. But XY does not do that, it does better! :D
Yes, sometimes going away from what every body else is doing to improve it is a good choice, especially since what's become the "standard" is really not good & "fixing" it would please all, or most, users.

That said, thinking about it I think the best way, IMHO, could be as Don suggested before and simply on F2 having no selection, and the cursor before the extension's dot.
That way, you wanna add/change the end of the filename, go ahead it's all ready for it (don't even need a right arrow to unselect!), wanna go to the begining, just hit Home as usual, and simply hold Shift before hitting Home to select the filename if you want to change it all!

I think this would be the best. Allows to do pretty much everything quickly. I know sometimes people might use Rename to copy the filename into clipboard, so the lack of selection could be seen for this as a downside, but remember that in XY Ctrl+Shift+P does that for you ;)
(or just Shift+Home then Del while still holding Shift, then Esc and voila! ;))
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