two application states simultaneously

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xyplorerköln
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two application states simultaneously

Post by xyplorerköln »

Hi all -

Donald, thank you for this excellent, world-class tool. Thoroughly enjoy using XYplorer.

I apologize in advance: I am in a crunch with work and don't have a lot of time to search. I did look through the forums for about 30 minutes but didn't find exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks for your patience and for any insight you can provide.

For a couple years now, I've been using XYplorer to manage work-related projects. It's very nice to have tabsets organized with all relevant tabs, and catalogs for quickly flipping back and forth between a large number of saved locations.

Once I got that set up for client contexts, I've basically been using it as a "workspace" manager. However, when I need to quickly jump to find files outside of those contexts, I typically resort to hitting WIN+E and opening a regular Windows File Explorer window. Eventually, I have maybe a dozen of those windows cluttering the desktop for various searches and sub-projects I'm working on. Obviously, that's not the best way to work.

After a bit of analysis today, I think the main reasons I follow this pattern are:
1. I don't want to "mess up" the orderly tabsets and configurations I've got in my existing XYplorer instance.
2. In almost all contexts, I need the orderly XYplorer configurations persistent and remaining on the desktop. Using native Windows File Explorer is a quick-and-messy workaround that keeps XYplorer clean.
3. When I have the pre-configured dual-pane XYplorer window open and open a new XYplorer window, I get a new dual-pane instance with all the same tabs as the first window. If I'm looking for a quick, single-pane Windows Explorer experience, it takes time to change everything up in XYplorer to match that.

So, in effect, I need (A) a "locked down" XYplorer window with all my pre-configured tabs open; running simultaneously to the ability to launch (B) multiple "quick-search / messy" XYplorer windows that let me get whatever I want without affecting the state of window (A).

Can you point me to how to do this? I've got a Windows hotkey configured that launches a new window of XYplorer, and I'm ready to have it launch an XYplorer window I feel I can use as quickly as WIN-E. In addition to the above, I'd like to be able to use a hotkey to open new tabs in the second, single-pane window (instead of opening up a new instance of XYplorer each time).

So to recap, I want to:
- Have a "locked down" instance of XYplorer running at all times, using a preconfigured set of tabsets that don't get navigated away from;
- Use a Windows hotkey (already working) to launch new tabs in a second single-pane XYplorer window, not opening multiple additional XYplorer windows

Final thoughts to Donald: I would imagine, given the fundamental functionality of XYplorer, that other users may have run into similar (bad) patterns of use like I have. People want both a well-organized, locked-down experience for some things (which XYplorer so elegantly provides), and also a quick-and-easy experience for the average quick searches, etc. Unless I've totally missed how to do this, (which is likely) is this worth a UX review? I could imagine a future version of XYplorer which has, in addition to the main XYplorer window, the ability to launch mini-XYplorer windows (popups or dockable) triggered by a hotkey. Or something else you find more logical. Thoughts?
Last edited by xyplorerköln on 27 Feb 2018 06:29, edited 4 times in total.

xyplorerköln
Posts: 177
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 18:59

Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by xyplorerköln »

After a bit more digging, I've discovered one possible solution:

1. Run the "locked down" dual-pane XYplorer instance as normal.
2. Use command-line parameters to open a second instance of XYplorer (either an alternate .ini or an entirely separate installation path) configured the way I want it (simplified and single-pane); and
2. Use the tab() scripting feature in the passed-in command-line parameters to open new tabs.

While that certainly appears to be a way to do it, I'd still like to get thoughts re: the overall workflow for people like me who want a quick/immediate way to launch (1) a preconfigured workspace alongside (2) a quick-and-easy WIN-E Windows File Explorer replacement. Probably most users would never even look at these forums or try to figure out how to use command lines and scripting. Is what I'm looking for possible without using command lines and scripting?

admin
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by admin »

Isn't that a case for the recently added Read-Only mode?

Code: Select all

v18.70.0101 - 2018-02-20 15:06
    + Command Line Switches: Added switch /readonly. Lets you run the app 
      in read-only mode, i.e. the settings are read from disk but never written 
      to disk. So your configuration on disk will be untouched by this instance.
      Example:
        C:\XYplorer\XYplorer.exe /readonly
      Notes:
        - [READONLY] in shown in the window title bar when in read-only mode.
        - You get a Status Bar message when you actively attempt to save 
          settings in read-only mode.

xyplorerköln
Posts: 177
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 18:59

Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by xyplorerköln »

Thank you for pointing out read-only mode, which I had missed.

I think that could go a long way, in one sense. If I'm launching a new instance but with the same install/.ini, I would still need to figure out how to create a new instance once and then only new tabs in that instance, using one hotkey combination. Not sure about that.

As I've thought further on this, I think what I'm looking for might conceptually be something I'd like to call "QuickXY" - an activatable "third pane" or a popup pane, etc. I wouldn't really want to maintain two different installs/.ini files, because then I'd have to mess with keeping catalogs, settings, etc. in sync. So I think I just want to use one XYplorer "environment" (install/.ini), but simply have a situation where a "quick use" mode is at work.

Analogies:
- In Microsoft OneNote, you can organize and lock down your notebooks, sections and pages to an extreme degree, and the app is excellent for that. But sometimes you're in a big hurry and don't have time to deal with the organizational elements (thinking through which section/page you should be adding to; then actually clicking around or searching to get there). So there is a "Quick Notes" utility - which is literally its own, application-specified notebook - which lets you quickly fling new notes into it. Quick Notes has assignable hotkeys and is a great way to instantly take notes without thinking about organization - just hit the hotkeys and type. But the overall environment and structure of OneNote is there, so when you're done being in a hurry, you can move the Quick Notes pages into your other organized notebooks.

- In many professional design applications, there are "quick draw" tools that mimic entry-level programs and let the user jump in and approximate an idea that they have quickly. Then the user can resume using the pro tools (bezier curves, brushes, etc.) to better articulate the design later.

So while using command-line arguments definitely could be a workaround, I think what I'm getting at is a more fundamental aspect of how an organized XYplorer user might sometimes, in a default mode/instance (with no second instances or parameter-passing) want to use the program.

Basically:
- I want to use one instance and set of settings;
- I want to keep all my existing organization of tabsets, sessions, active tabs, catalogs, etc.
- I sometimes want to quickly fire up a "QuickXY section" or "third pane" or popup, with multiple tabs - kind of like OneNote Quick Notes - which lets me be messy. Preferably, the "QuickXY" secondary section can be multi-tabbed and persistent (i.e. not lost if the app crashes or on system restart, etc.) just like the "real" panes, and I could move tabs from QuickXY to the other panes as I decide to organize them. Or I could just demolish all the QuickXY tabs at any point and start over, without messing up my "real" two panes.

Thoughts?

jupe
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by jupe »

Try this as a test in the XY addressbar

Code: Select all

run "<xy> /script=""::#353;"" /readonly";
something like it, or exactly it could be assigned to a shortcut key, if you want it to open with multiple tabs instead create an external script file with tab() commands in it instead, you can make the second instance look however you want too via scripting, like different toolbar, force single pane mode etc, check out loadlayout() if used in readonly mode it should get close to what you want.

xyplorerköln
Posts: 177
Joined: 01 Jan 2016 18:59

Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by xyplorerköln »

Jupe, thanks!

Even running
run "<xy>";
I'm getting: The system cannot find the file specified.

It appears that if xy is a location with any spaces in it, XYplorer only uses the part of the location that is up to the first space.

So if XYplorer were installed at (and therefore xy is =) F:\jupe rocks\XYplorer.exe
xy returns:
F:\jupe

Any workaround?

--------------

Also, a more general note: I'm willing to explore this approach. But I'd like to still maintain my larger inquiry: The average user will likely not want to mess with manual installs of scripts, but would likely still benefit from a QuickXY feature as described above. I myself really would love to tinker, but my work schedule requires me to work very quickly with little room/time for error, so if XYplorer could do what I'm suggesting without lots of custom scripting, it would be a huge help.

I'd like to get more thoughts. I might pose this as a feature request unless too many object.
Last edited by xyplorerköln on 27 Feb 2018 14:30, edited 1 time in total.

jupe
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by jupe »

oops sorry try this

Code: Select all

run """<xy>"" /script=""::#353;"" /readonly";

admin
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by admin »

Some days ago I already suggested somewhere here in the forum to have a command to run the Read-Only instance directly from the GUI. So you would not have to know anything about command line switches. And I like the idea to call it "Quick and Dirty Instance" or "Throw Away Instance" or so...

That would be easy to add, but:
- It would read the configuration as currently on disk, not as in memory; so it would not be an exact clone of the current main instance (unless you Save Settings first). However, it would open in the current path; I think that's clearly expected.
- It would have all the tabs and everything else. I think your desire to start with no tabs (or just one) is a bit too specific for the general public.

So, if I add "Open Throw Away Instance" to the menu (and it would also open a 3rd, 4th etc instance), how would you like that?

jupe
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by jupe »

I should have mentioned also if you just wanted to start an exact read only copy of your previously saved settings you can just use

readonly;

readonly "C:\"; //start readonly instance in C:\

readonlyhere;


in the XY address bar or via a keyboard shortcut if you didn't want to bother with switches etc.

xyplorerköln
Posts: 177
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by xyplorerköln »

re: "throw-away" feature - I would like that in the extreme. :biggrin:

Thank you for your patience as I think through this.

One big caveat as I'm testing read-only, though: In the event of a crash/system restart/etc., inherently the nature of read-only means that any tabs open in the read-only mode will not persist into a relaunch of XYplorer.

Ironically, the main reason I'm trying to sort out my request is that, while Windows File Explorer can be set to reopen windows after a restart, it's completely unreliable. If I've got 50 File Explorer windows open to very specific places where I need to finish working before I close them, and I lose all those locations in a system restart, then I've got to waste lots of time trying to figure out all the locations again and navigate to them.

So a huge advantage of using XYplorer is that it's a lot more reliable than Windows FE and it tends to reopen all my tabs on restart without losing anything (most of the time.) :) But if I start launching 50 new tabs (which are only used for focused work during the course of a day, not meant to be kept in my organized "workspaces" per se), things get very cluttered quickly in my organized XYplorer "workspace."

So, ideally, I'd like to have a GUI-launchable "throw-away" instance, but have it set up so that the "throw-away" instance's tabs could persist on XYplorer restart in the event of a crash or system restart. Maybe this would require a set of temp files that are kept as long as the "throw-away" instance exists, so it can be restored if a crash/restart occurs. The instance would only be "thrown away" when the user purposely closes it. Make sense? Otherwise, I'm stuck with the same problem I am now with Windows FE.

Agreements:
- Yes, reading config from disk is good and expected.
- Yes, open in current path is good and expected.
- Yes, opening "throw-away" with all the current tabs is good with me, just as long as when I close any read-only instances the "real" instances remain untouched (which obviously is the point of the feature).

Questions:
- Just confirming the obvious: With any such feature, it would be possible to trigger via hotkey?
- Would it be possible to easily/quickly move tabs from a "throw-away" instance to a "real" instance?
- Would it be possible to have a version of the gui/command which (a) opens a new read-only instance if one isn't open yet, and (b) opens new tabs in that read-only instance once it is open? (therefore possible to trigger this logical dependency behavior using just one hotkey combination.) I'd like to avoid triggering 50 separate XYplorer windows if possible.
- Would it be possible, as described above, to have the "throw-away" instance(s) tabs persist beyond crashes and restarts (i.e. until the throw-away instances are purposely closed)?
Last edited by xyplorerköln on 27 Feb 2018 15:04, edited 3 times in total.

xyplorerköln
Posts: 177
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by xyplorerköln »

jupe wrote:I should have mentioned also if you just wanted to start an exact read only copy of your previously saved settings you can just use

readonly;

readonly "C:\"; //start readonly instance in C:\

readonlyhere;


in the XY address bar or via a keyboard shortcut if you didn't want to bother with switches etc.
jupe,

Thank you for your wonderful and quick replies. As I have time, I'm excited to explore the possibilities your tips suggest. Really helpful - thanks for doing all the work you do here.

admin
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by admin »

I think you should forget about the idea of tabs persist beyond crashes. It's the point of a crash that something gets lost. ;)

I already started to implement the feature because I like it so much. Let's wait for the first version and then ask for refinements...

BTW, I called it "Open Throw Away Clone" because it sounds cool.
Yes, reading config from disk is good and expected.
Not so sure about this anymore. My personal expectation would be to open a perfect clone of XYplorer as it looks now. Of course, an internal silent Save Settings would be necessary to achieve this. Opinions?

jupe
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by jupe »

xyplorerköln wrote:Questions:
- Just confirming the obvious: With any such feature, it would be possible to trigger via hotkey?
- Would it be possible to easily/quickly move tabs from a "throw-away" instance to a "real" instance?
- Would it be possible to have a version of the gui/command which (a) opens a new read-only instance if one isn't open yet, and (b) opens new tabs in that read-only instance once it is open? (therefore possible to trigger this logical dependency behavior using just one hotkey combination.) I'd like to avoid triggering 50 separate XYplorer windows if possible.
- Would it be possible, as described above, to have the "throw-away" instance(s) tabs persist beyond crashes and restarts (i.e. until the throw-away instances are purposely closed)?
  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. Yes using /flg=2 on command line (not sure about what GUI options will get added)
  4. Surviving after crashes, I don't know many apps that do this, readonly mode is a no go for this criteria, but what you could do instead, is write a script (it would only be a couple lines) that when run via your hotkey copies your current ini file to a temp location then edits that file to enable immediate save to disk of tabs (if you don't have that enabled in your main 2 pane instance already) and also enables single pane mode, then launches a new instance, not in read only mode but instead saving to a different ini file, that way your current config would be safe, every time you close your throw away instance if would revert back to the last config from your main instance, but if you had a crash you could load the throw away ini file to recover

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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by admin »

jupe wrote:
xyplorerköln wrote:- Would it be possible to easily/quickly move tabs from a "throw-away" instance to a "real" instance?
  1. Yes
Yes? How?

jupe
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Re: two application states simultaneously

Post by jupe »

Couldn't you save the tabset and load on the first instance? or can't you save tabsets in read only?, I haven't actually tried.

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