Tags 2.0

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jacky
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by jacky »

TheQwerty wrote:I guess I'll be the one with the really unpopular answer. Don, take the time and make the changes.

Everything that uses tags allows many to be assigned, and bucking the convention serves the good of no one.

Using "keywords" instead is going to be confusing and it may well turn away new users who come in with the expectations of using multiple tags per item, search for Tagging, and don't get into the feature far enough to discover "keywords".


I think the discomfort now will be much less than what will come in the future by ignoring the standard, and it will be much more difficult to change then than it is now.
Yeah, while I didn't mention it I agree with that. I still think the original plan remains the better solution, I had only mentioned the second best because I'm sure Don thought about that a bit before coming in and asking us, and while I agree with what TheQwerty said, one could also expect confusion coming from XY using Tag for one thing, and Tags (same thing, only plural form) for another thing entirely. (Not to mention someone using "tag" to talk about one of the Tags, as opposed to a Tag, the other feature that is.)

If Don thinks this conversion would require a lot of work & time (while not even removing all possible confusion, just switching from one to another), one has to take that into account, and comparing the confusions, maybe it's easier to deal with/explain that simply, in XY it's one tag, but many keywords per item. (As opposed to the whole Tag vs Tags.) The documentation could very well, under Tags, have a note specifying that while multiple tags per item isn't supported, it is doable using what's called Keywords.
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admin
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by admin »

Yeah, yeah, you don't have to do it... :)

I think "Keyword" is a perfect term for the job. Even better than "Tag" because it has a much longer tradition.

There are two systems now to choose from:
1) Label; Tags; Comment
2) Tag; Keywords; Comment

Apart from the bloody work -- you know, I'm not extremely happy with "Label" either...
And, if I'm not wrong, the original meaning of "tag" is rather something like a price tag, i.e. you put exactly one of them to a thing, not many.

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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by TheQwerty »

admin wrote:Yeah, yeah, you don't have to do it... :)
If you want to give me the source I'll take a stab at it! :P
admin wrote:There are two systems now to choose from:
1) Label; Tags; Comment
2) Tag; Keywords; Comment
As I said I believe most new potential users are going to come in with the expectation of Tags (google Tags vs Keywords), and it's more important that the naming of features is correct for them than it is for the existing users, so my preference is 1.

Another reason I would go with the first is because they are all verbs..
You can label, tag, or comment (on, ugh so close!) an item.
You cannot keyword an item; not even keyword on an item - in fact that sounds a bit dirty!

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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by j_c_hallgren »

TheQwerty wrote:
admin wrote:There are two systems now to choose from:
1) Label; Tags; Comment
2) Tag; Keywords; Comment
As I said I believe most new potential users are going to come in with the expectation of Tags (google Tags vs Keywords), and it's more important that the naming of features is correct for them than it is for the existing users, so my preference is 1.
Of the two, I'd take nbr 1 also...but there seems not to be full consistency in terms...For ex, in two of my photo appl's: Picasa uses Keywords and allows multiple per pix...FastStone Img Viewer uses one Tag per pix but I'm not sure if that is stored or just while working...but on web, PhotoBucket uses Tags...
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TheQwerty
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by TheQwerty »

j_c_hallgren wrote:Picasa uses Keywords and allows multiple per pix...
Odd, here Picasa (v3.6.0) generally refers to them in the GUI as Tags, but if you look at a photo's properties you see they get stored under "IPTC Keywords."

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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by j_c_hallgren »

TheQwerty wrote:
j_c_hallgren wrote:Picasa uses Keywords and allows multiple per pix...
Odd, here Picasa (v3.something) generally refers to them in the GUI as Tags, but if you look at a photo's properties you see they get stored under "IPTC Keywords."
I'm using v2 due to W2K so they may well have changed methodology/terminology.
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by Stefan »

admin wrote:There are two systems now to choose from:
1) Label; Tags; Comment
I think it's not nifty to reuse the tag term (only different by an additional 's') for an new function, since Tag is already known and documented to highlight files.
What about users of older XY builds not able to handle the updating to an newer build? I mean this could become misleading, e.g. at support questions.

So i vote for
2) Tag; Keywords; Comment
or
3) Mark; Keywords; Comment
since for me it was not clear that Tag means 'only' highlighting. In the first days it think about Tag as Keyword too.
So for my understanding 'Marker' fits better to that what the current Tag feature does.


HTH? :lol:

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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by j_c_hallgren »

Stefan wrote:
admin wrote:There are two systems now to choose from:
1) Label; Tags; Comment
I think it's not nifty to reuse the tag term (only different by an additional 's') for an new function, since Tag is already known and documented to highlight files.
What about users of older XY builds not able to handle the updating to an newer build? I mean this could become misleading, e.g. at support questions.
It's not really being reused as such but shifted to what is more common usage where there are multiple tags per item, so thus "label" will replace the existing "tag"...and any users of older builds who don't update are /frozen in time anyway so it doesn't matter what happens now...plus, the first support question typically asked here is "what vers?" so I don't see it as misleading.

BTW, "Mark" is not a term that is at all common for this type of function.
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by Stefan »

j_c_hallgren wrote:BTW, "Mark" is not a term that is at all common for this type of function.
No?
Maybe because english isn't my mother language but i understand "to mark" or "Marker" is something to chose or highlight an item.
So by highlighting some files by an -currently so called- 'Tag', i do mark them by an Marker.

I learned this e.g. by an dictionary as e.g. http://www.dict.cc/?s=mark
And while it calls "to mark" it still could be used as "Mark", i think. ... but anyway this is OT :P
No push to use "Mark" instead of "Tag" .... just some brain storming.

- - -

If this helps to find the right term, here are some other examples from dict.cc:

http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/markieren.html
markieren
to tag
to mark
to flag
to sign
to brand
to label
to denote
to assign
to select
to earmark
to qualify
to bookmark
to indicate
to highlight


http://www.dict.cc/deutsch-englisch/Schlagwort.html
Schlagwort {n}
byword
phrase
slogan
headline
catchword
watchword
buzz word
catchphrase
catch phrase
Stichwort {n}
cue
prompt
headword
catch-word
Schlüsselwort {n}
keyword
key word
code word

beschriften
to label
to letter
to inscribe
to superscribe
to identify [mark, label]
to annotate

j_c_hallgren
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by j_c_hallgren »

Stefan wrote:
j_c_hallgren wrote:BTW, "Mark" is not a term that is at all common for this type of function.
No?
Maybe because english isn't my mother language but i understand "to mark" or "Marker" is something to chose or highlight an item.
So by highlighting some files by an -currently so called- 'Tag', i do mark them by an Marker.
What I'm saying is that, while mark does in fact mean what you've said, it's not typically used (AFAIK) on computers for this type of function...there are some words that have become more typical on PC's as compared to "real life" and the reverse is also true.
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Stefan
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by Stefan »

j_c_hallgren wrote:
Stefan wrote:
j_c_hallgren wrote:BTW, "Mark" is not a term that is at all common for this type of function.
No?
Maybe because english isn't my mother language but i understand "to mark" or "Marker" is something to chose or highlight an item.
So by highlighting some files by an -currently so called- 'Tag', i do mark them by an Marker.
What I'm saying is that, while mark does in fact mean what you've said, it's not typically used (AFAIK) on computers for this type of function...there are some words that have become more typical on PC's as compared to "real life" and the reverse is also true.
Aha, thanks JC.

JC> it's not typically used (AFAIK) on computers for this type of function
Hmm, one could see this like "Bookmarks" in text editors.
They even call "Mark" with VI => http://www.fprintf.net/vimCheatSheet.html => 'Marks'

O.K., i agree, Tag in XY is related to an file instead of an line... :wink: (but it looks a like)


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jacky
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by jacky »

admin wrote:1) Label; Tags; Comment
I vote for that, without a doubt.

Tags is definitely something used, in computer/web stuff at least, with many for one item (see how many sites offer tags cloud, etc where each item (post, app, etc) can have one or more tags).
If you don't like Label you could try for something else, like "Category" maybe, since it also comes with a color (possibly shown on List), and it's not uncommon to have many tags but only one category for one item. But it doesn't look/sound as good (to me) as does Label. Besides Label might feel more "open" and, AFAIC, is a fine choice.
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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by serendipity »

admin wrote: There are two systems now to choose from:
1) Label; Tags; Comment
2) Tag; Keywords; Comment
If the cost of 1) is not much I would definitely go with that and it would be worth it.
Also, my understanding about Keyword and Tag is this:
Keywords are usually used to describe an item accurately so that someone looking for it can find it. The original idea was to describe something in few Key Words for easy identification.
But tags on the other hand are like free speech you can tag a file with anything, it can be description-less and hence more flexible.
Eg: I might simply tag a .tmp file "for deletion" but that does not describe that item or tag my holiday pics "for printing" etc.

My 2 cents.

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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by Reve_Etrange »

serendipity wrote: If the cost of 1) is not much I would definitely go with that and it would be worth it.
Also, my understanding about Keyword and Tag is this:
Keywords are usually used to describe an item accurately so that someone looking for it can find it. The original idea was to describe something in few Key Words for easy identification.
But tags on the other hand are like free speech you can tag a file with anything, it can be description-less and hence more flexible.
Eg: I might simply tag a .tmp file "for deletion" but that does not describe that item or tag my holiday pics "for printing" etc.
Exactly.

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Re: Tags 2.0

Post by SkyFrontier »

..well, it seems I'm a bit too late but all the week I thought:

STAMPS!!!

That's the name of the new thing! :D

Consider it for a moment. All the rest should be as it currently is.
New User's Ref. Guide and Quick Setup Guide can help a bit! Check XYplorer Resources Index for many useful links!
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-coz' the aim of computing is to free us to LIVE...

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